Episode 28: The Aftermath of Purity Culture

>>> Click here to read the computer generated transcript (note that the transcript isn't perfect)

Mel: Welcome back to the making an Effort podcast, the podcast where you get to drop in on a conversation with two friends, discussing all the things that they make an effort with and some of the things they don't. Ah, hi everybody. Hi. Hi, good, good. Um, we're just gonna launch right in to tell you that this week we are going to be talking a bit purity culture. Um, and I think it's important that right from the get go, we give a little bit of a trigger warning, um, that the things that we are going to talk about today, um, are partly our commentary on our own experience around purity culture, which will give some context to in a second. Um, but also we're sharing your stories, stories that you submitted to us by email or voice notes. Um, and so with that, we want to make sure that we put a little bit of a content warning in that, uh, during this episode, we're going to be talking about all things around sexuality, um, stuff that comes up around sexual abuse, um, abuse of authority, death, shim, all kinds of stuff. Yeah. And it's, uh, hopefully if he, uh, feels safe enough to listen, um, this we hope is going to be. Uh, a really honest and important conversation. Um, but we, we also just thought it was really important that we share with you that those are things that have come up in the, in the stories that we've received and the things that we're going to talk about today. Um, so if that just feels like it might be a bit much for you, then we absolutely understand if you just need to opt out of this episode. Um, and I think, yeah, it's important that we maybe give a little bit of context to what we mean by purity culture. We know that lots of you obviously, because we've heard from you have had experiences and understand what this term means. But I guess what we're talking about here is a culture that we have observed and experienced more so in faith and church communities, um, and in evangelicalism, where it has been pretty prevalent. And where it really, I think it is derived from is in those, in that context. But really is a narrative around sexuality, that has often bled into mainstream culture. And I think particularly where women are often more scrutinized, more heavily sexualized, uh, than men and given all kinds of mixed messages about their sexuality. So we, um, I guess that's where we're coming from is we want to talk about the culture of, um, Of that, of, of where that has come from and how it has affected particularly women. I mean, it goes to say it was with, I'd say it. And I suppose that all of the emails and voice notes that we got were from women. Yeah. And it also is quite telling that there were more emails and voice notes this time, because I think that this topic in particular is so difficult. Um, and so many of us are still a work in EIT. How this, how the culture of talking about sex and sexuality has affected our lives as we've maybe unpacked some of that teaching some of that, some of those messages. Um, so we understand that it's a really vulnerable thing to talk about. I think Gabby and I are both feeling a little bit nervous about talking about it in different ways. Like it's, it's one thing for us to, um, shoot the shit on Marco polo about this stuff, which we, which we have done. So much, but, um, it's another thing to press record and know that, um, you know, hundreds of people are going to be less than

Gabby: they know. I know. Well, I just also want to thank you so much to everyone who was brave enough to send their story in. Um, just because, you know, stories are such a powerful thing. And I think the reason why these stories and why we asked for stories is because they can be really healing when we get to come out of our little corner of shame that we've been existing in and alone and realize that there are other people who have walked a similar road, um, and. Uh, sadly in many cases in, in this, in this particular episode, it's kind of sad that many of us have this experience, but at least we can find a little bit of comfort in knowing that we're not alone in this and that there is no shame. Um, and yeah, no from us anyway, not from us. And that's why we think these stories are important. Um, and why we'll be sharing a little bit about our experiences as well. And so that's a, that's a really big intro for today's episode. Yeah. I

Mel: think it deserves it. It's an important one. Yeah, it does. And just also to let you know if you are someone yeah. Submitted something to us. Um, and you maybe full of regret, you know, kind of like press sand on something and be like, oh shit. Why did I say that? Um, we want you to know that we're not sharing names. Um, and anyone who has emailed us, even if you said you didn't say explicitly that you don't want your name shared, we're not going to share any names today. And we're also not going to rate entire emails and full as well because, um, we, we received so many and we just don't, we don't have enough time to go through every single one, but, um, but really, and truly, we're just so grateful that you felt safe enough to send us a message, to share your story, to be really honest. And, um, we really love you for that. I am an honor, you for doing that and thank you so much.

Gabby: Yeah. Yeah. All right. Well, should we just get stuck right in with this first email?

Mel: Yeah. Yeah. Let's hear from, let's hear from some of you guys and then we'll, we'll kind of chit chat up about what we've been thinking. Yeah,

Gabby: I am so glad you're talking about purity culture. I really struggled with it as a teenager growing up in church. And now as a full-time youth pastor feel the weight of the subject for my youth. I think the main thing I struggle with is the message that it teaches girls, that they hold responsibility for something. They actually don't have any control over and can create a habit of insecurity and shame in their bodies instead of just showing them the value that they actually have. We should be teaching our girls that they are valuable and important and they should be loved and cared for in that way. Modesty is rooted in the heart, not your body. And then I'm going to skip down a little bit, um, My last issue is the way we talk to sex. I talk about sex to youth groups. We tend to only tell teens to stay away from sex. Like it's taboo a taboo thing rather than explaining to them, but it's so good and so valuable. And that it's worth waiting until you have the relationship with God, the relationship that God designed for it to be best. And this has actually caused a lot of problems in my own marriage. After being told sex was wrong, my whole life and avoided everything to do with it. I didn't know how to communicate or be sex comfortable in sex when all of a sudden it was okay to do so. Maybe if Christians around me wouldn't have been so afraid to talk about it. It wouldn't have taken me so long to be comfortable with it. Um, yeah, that message. So I think this is actually a really good one to start with because it talks about the context that most of us grew. Most of us who grew up with this specific, I know that there's terrible messaging around women and our bodies that is mainstream. That is not part of an associated with any kind of religion. I think most of those stories we're going to be hearing today are going to be told within the context of this was something they were told in church. And so I think that is just important to highlight because, um, it's just, uh, gosh, because it's does nothing to really do. The two are not intertwined. And so I think just talking about how, um, we hear this messaging from spiritual authority figures at a very young and impressionable age when we assume that the people in those positions know best, um, and are often taught. That is so it's such a heavy responsibility. And in many ways I think the ball was massively dropped. So our generation, um, where, where sex is concerned. Um, I also just think, I mean, something about this email that really stands out to me and we'll talk about this more because there's more stories about this is like the, the responsibility for maintaining, you know, purity, air quotes. You can't see them is always on the girl. And that is just, it's often put on the girl in youth group contexts. And that is, that was my experience anyway, and that was such a. Weird bird. Like, I don't even have a different word for it other than just like so weird looking back on it. I just felt this like weight of responsibility for other people's sexuality. Yeah. And that was just like put on you as like a 13 year olds or even younger potentially. And you're like, it's not even something that is like, could ever be put on you, but it is put on you at your, when you're 13 and that messes with you. Right. Like,

Mel: absolutely like that whole, whole idea that, um, I mean, this is the thing, right? I know that what you said just a second ago about this, there, there being that separation between the messages, women getting culture and the messages that they get from church. I actually think they're massively conflicted. Like they're really conciliated. Um, and I think that they, that more and more, you know, like that has, I think that purity culture contributes to rape culture, you know, like massive,

Gabby: absolutely.

Mel: So that, you know, that that kind of micro message that you might've received in church about how to dress modestly and not tempt to boys, into, you know, thinking impure, impure tots for all you Irish, Irish listeners. That's a little, um, Gabby: maybe if I had an Irish accent, this whole thing would just be so much more enjoyable. I don't

Mel: think so. Or you have an impure tout. Um, but you know, that whole idea of like you, you know, do not tempt the boys, all that kind of stuff. That's, that's also the message that we hear in mainstream culture. To rib culture, that if you, if you are dressing provocatively, if you have had too much to drink, you are inviting someone to inappropriately touch your body, assume something about your body, um, or have some sort of element of control over your body. Um, um, and I think that that's where some of this stuff starts to conflate and shouldn't, you know, that we should just notice that that's, that is, that has had a big impact in high. So many people operate and think in the world and, and in general, um, and that responsibility absolutely. You know, I could, I really could talk a lot on a blight, the idea of, of expression and, and actually, you know, that women have been taught to not express themselves. Explicitly in any way because of what the repercussions of that might be and what the, what that might invite. And, and, and in every way, there's so much wrong with that. Um, and it really diminishes our own autonomy to be ourselves, to, to do what we want and to, um, behave how we want to follow our instincts, how we want to pursue pleasure, how do we want? Um, and yeah. Um, I really, really failing that bit as well in that, in that message. And also this, you know, this listener is talking about how the, oh, okay. Offset of all of that has impacted in her marital relationship, you know, like that, that you're expected to flip that switch on your wedding night. Right? Like I talked to countless friends and people who grew up in this, around this message, um, who, you know, who came to their wedding and all of a sudden they were like allied air quotes to have sex. And they were just like, wow, this is absolutely not what I thought it was going to be. Or this is, this is definitely,

Gabby: you know, well, just it's. So, I mean, I don't know what it was like for you, Mel, but like the co the circles that I grew up in, it was like, K don't like, you can't have anything to do with sex don't. So like, even if you can avoid kissing at all costs, that's the best thing to do. And then. As soon as you're like engaged and then married, you're supposed to have like all of this sexual knowledge and like, know how and be this like total like sex fantasy in the bedroom or,

Mel: or, and it's like, no, no. What intimacy maintenance, right. Oh, Gabby: well, I'm sorry. I was saying like, the expectation is that you like have all of this, like sexual prowess in the bedroom when really the reality is like, you don't know anything, you don't know the basics. So like it can feel, and I w I mean, we need to keep moving through these messages as we go through all this stuff more, but like, yeah, well, let's just, let's just listen to the next voicemail. I'm sure we're going to cover all of us, but I just think it's such a ridiculous, I feel like I

Mel: could go a lot of different directions with this, but I think. When it comes to especially being a woman and, um, the way that we view our bodies and everything from like modesty culture and the, the responsibilities put on us too. So that guys don't make mistakes or anything like that is, is just, it's not an easy thing that you can unlearn over at night. Like it's a heavy blanket that takes a long time to unlearn. And I think when I saw that this was really deep and really so much more than just don't have sex with anyone before you're married, but I. Remember telling a girl too, that she was wearing a tank top and her breast strap was showing. And we were going to be on stage for something that a church leader. And I just remember pulling her aside and I was not in a place of leadership at all. I was her peer, but I told her, Hey, I think you should put on his shirt just so that we're all appropriate here. And I remember seeing the look on her face that she didn't know how to respond to me in that moment. And I instantly felt so much shame and regret and all the things. And I just, I felt like I had become a product of the movement that it was like now this dark ripple effect is happening where women are shaming other women into, um, something that is not their responsibility, that it's not on them to own. And. I'm grateful that we are seeing this more and more, and we can walk on the opposite direction, but it's still deep

Gabby: and painful. That's an intense one.

Mel: Yeah. Yeah. I really appreciate it. This one, because that is definitely, that's something that I do. I do want to talk about is this idea that actually purity culture, um, just like she said, it actually seeps into our own idea of what, what we expect of each other and becomes this, um, Policing of each other's expression and policing of each other's sexuality. So it's like, it really does pit women against each other as well. I think, you know, like it, it injects so much judgment into ourself that there's absolutely no way that that's not going to be projected on each

Gabby: other. I actually have a story about this. I, so when I was in youth group, I probably was 16 or 17. I became really good friends with a bunch of like twenty-something girls from our church who were all volunteering in the youth, um, and would invite us over to their house. And we would, you know, have movie nights and dinners and order out. And it was, it was awesome. It was like one of my favorite parts of being a part of youth group. Um, cause it's just made it like it was, I was at the age where I was like, I genuinely just thought they were so cool. You know, like living in like this big house by themselves. And I really looked up to them. Um, and one day after church, I was over there as I often was having lunch or whatever. And one of the girls had her brother in town who was like, maybe in his early twenties. Um, and he was joining us for dinner or for lunch. Um, and at one point my youth leader pulled me aside. She was like, Hey, do you mind stepping outside for a second? And I was like, yeah, of course what's up. And she's like, Hey, so I don't know what his name was column. Ryan Ryan told his sister who told me that, um, your shirt is just like a bit low. Do you want me to like, get you a t-shirt? And I like, first of all, I know I didn't own anything that. I mean, I don't even want to get into the conversation of what is like what we're going to call immodest. Cause I just think that's an unhelpful conversation, but I know that Mike, what I was wearing that day was fine. It was, there was nothing air quotes wrong with it. Um, but the amount of shame I felt in that moment, like I felt so publicly humiliated in front of these girls who I looked up to so much, I felt ashamed about my body. I felt embarrassed to even be there. And for a long time, like I, like, I think I just like stayed for another 30 minutes and just left and I didn't tell anyone about it. I never confronted them about it because I didn't think they were doing anything wrong. I thought I was the one who was in the wrong for years. Um, And I mean, I got, I got over it, whatever that means, but I remember telling Chris my husband about that story as an adult. And he was like, oh yeah, that was, that guy was hitting on you. That was his distorted way of hitting on you. And I was like, Hmm, if that is true, I just felt, it made me sad for everyone in that story and made me sad for me for obvious reasons and made me sad for the girls who are in their twenties, who I am sure. If I, they heard this story with like die, they would just, they would just want to die. So I'm not even upset. I'm going to swallow them up. They were just a product of what the culture we were all in. So I'm not even trying to shame them in this moment, but also for this like 21 year old man, young man who. Grew up in the same culture too, and had this like such this, this distorted view of sexuality and what it means to be attracted to someone and what it means to, you know, and I mean, whatever, maybe there was the, the age difference. There was probably a key factor. I don't even know how old he was. Um, but it just was like, I look back on that story and I'm like, this is the most unhealthy, like cocktail

Mel: of terrible things. And yeah,

Gabby: I like sadly it was just one of many stories that happened like that in my youth. Um, but it's one of the ones that stands out to me and it definitely, I think whenever they happen in public contexts, like that, the shame is just so much more intense. Um,

Mel: And I think like your, your, your little 16 Brianne as well, just hasn't developed that kind of critical thinking around all of that stuff and is internalize and so much of that to, to Maine so much more. So you're a little 16 year old girl Brianne was, was also probably going, oh, I wonder if they've thought about this before. Oh, I wonder if, if I have like, you know, what was, what has been the implications of this in other contexts and have they thought about this for a long time? Have I, have I been, yeah, it's just something that they've wanted to say for each. Like, I can just, I can hear that, that conversation that you probably had and, and your 16 year old head, and I'm just heartbroken that, you know, that that happens, but we know that it does, we know that it does happen and we know that Ethan. On. Um, so I'd side of church culture as well. Like this idea of women police in each other's expression and sexuality is rife, right. It even is still, you know, like I know even, you know, our thinking automatically is judgemental. Uplight what clothes people wear, what that means about their sexuality. You know, if they're, if they're wearing clothes, you know, are they more provocative or are they dis what does that mean about their sexuality? And I think that there's a cure, a curiosity about people isn't there, there's a curiosity about what someone's outward expression means a bite there in herself, you know? Right. Um, but when that turns into judgment on sham, uh, we all lose. Like we just all lose because we don't get to actually. We don't get to see people for who they are. Right. We just kind of boil it all dying into one little, one little compartment, which is sexuality. Um, and that's not to say that sexuality, isn't such a big component of our humanity, but, um, but I also just think it's such a patriarchal tool too. You know, bring that element into female, female relationships like women, women being judgmental about each other. Cause it's such a great distraction. Isn't it? From the harm that's being caused by the man who perpetuate these narratives actually. Yeah. Who I could, I felt like stuff rising inside me there, but I could just go take us. We've got lots of other emails to go with three, but I was like poised for a ramp there

Gabby: maybe a minute, maybe in a minute. I think, I think there's an inevitable rant coming, but we'll just keep going. We'll keep

Mel: powering through. Let's do it. Okay. So we have another email, um, that I'm going to read it. Uh, so this listener says, I have a lot of thoughts on this topic, and they're still a bit jumbled. As I'm currently walking through confronting high purity culture has had long lasting effects on me. My full story is also kind of complicated. So we'll try to keep this somewhat brief. I was attained in the night days and grew up surrounded by the modesty narrative, strong emphasis on remaining physically pure and complete lack of sex education, all with a big dose of guilt and shame. I very much bought into it because it's all I knew when I was 16. I find myself in a sexually abusive situation involving another older teen that my church that completely crushed me. I blamed myself, felt objectified used dirty. And even though I was still a Virgin and pure, I did the only thing I knew and tried to stuff those feelings aside and hide what I had internalized as being broken. How could anybody want me if they knew my secret? I didn't tell anyone for years. And it was terrifying when I did my then fiance and you before we got engaged, but it came up in our premarital counseling. And when they find out that we had also slept together, they refuse to marry us, essentially forced us into separate quote unquote hailing groups and may into wildly inappropriate counseling with the pastor. Honestly, all of that Vonage to all of that managed to do was alienated us from each other intensify, the deep shame I felt and increase the sense of brokenness I had. We did eventually my right, but it doesn't stop there. I have carried that internalized sense of brokenness and self-blame through years of infertility marriage struggles. And then my husband's staff a few years back, one of the things my therapist and I talked about was cognitive distortions. And I started to recognize faulty thought patterns that I have. I have an actively work to correct and shift those views. It has been hard work. And I had lamented earlier this year that I wish I knew where they originated last spring. Well, but bingeing, another podcast focused on fundamentalism and modesty culture. It felt like a light bulb went off. And I realized that a lot of those cognitions stemmed from the messages I got and purity culture and exacerbated by the trauma I experienced as a team, I have known for a long time that purity culture was damaging and inappropriate, but digging around the internet, doing some academic research and finding people speaking out against it has been mentally, emotionally and spiritually hard. I'm sure you've received many messages with similar stories. And I do look forward to hearing both of your thoughts on this subject. I know

Gabby: that is such a hard one.

Mel: Uh, we just, if you're less than we just want to really honor you. Oh, I feel really emotional.

Gabby: Well, it is emotional. It is. Cause it like, it goes to the core of who like the message is about who we are and um, that is going to be emotional and really heavy. Yeah. If you're listening, I'm so sorry that you went through that and you didn't deserve that. Um, and we're just, we, we just wish we could give you a hug.

Mel: Yeah. Thank you so much for, for sharing that with us. It's really, really powerful to rate that experience on just high. All of those things of, you know, come together, you know, the Shia or rind abuse. Um, the really toxic handling of that kind of thing within church churches, um, that just absolutely intensifies the shame and, um, increases it. And I slowly it's people makes them feel completely broken instead of CF. Um, and then just the repercussions and all, and all sorts of ways as, as you go through the really hard things of life anyway, you know, like to carry it, to carry that on top of all of the really hard parts of life, you know, and fertility and death and relationships, uh, all of that stuff I think is, you know, it's, it's really all encompassing and I'm, so I'm so glad that, you know, If you can be glad that, that this Raider has been able to recognize the origins of the messages and how that they, how they've impacted her. And I really, really hope that the therapy she's receiving is, is bringing some Halen and even just some understand some freedom around it.

Gabby: I just think, you know, it highlights something that I think is pervasive in the whole purity culture thing, which is okay. So our sexuality, isn't all of who we are, but it's a very core part. So when you take harmful messaging shame-based messaging and instill that in someone, when they're just discovering a part of who they are, especially when you're in your teens, it doesn't feel like your sexuality doesn't feel like it's this other thing outside yourself. It, I mean, it feels like this. Your whole life, but I think, especially in your senior teams, it feels like this like thing that has just taken over your whole being, and it is who you are in a way, like that was my experience anyway. And so to like, to bring shame to that message or to that part of you is so damaging because it is so, so, so intertwined with who you are at your core, um, like that takes so much time. Like how do you even undo that? And I'm just like asking, because I even just think for me, you know, I didn't have anything like deeply, I don't even know what the right word is to say. Like, I didn't have any deep sexual trauma that happened in my past. I just had bad shameful messaging about my sexuality. Growing up. And so, but I'm still like the amount of work that is taken for me to feel safe with someone who loves me and respects me and honors me in that relationship. Like, I think about how much time that is taken for me to undo it. Just, I don't know if that makes any sense at all.

Mel: Yeah. Without, without the kind of explicit yeah.

Gabby: Trauma

Mel: of abusive relationships or abusive, um, experiences. Yeah. I know. Um, it's, it's enormous. Um, and then you have stuff like, you know, and this whole idea of. Churches separating couples that have had sex before marriage and to these hail hailing groups. Right. And going to inappropriate counseling and all that kind of stuff is just to mate. So toxic, because as soon as they get married them, it's like, you better give it to your husband. Right. Like it's, it's all of that stuff. And you're just like, but literally two months before we got married, you were like, you were telling us that we were broken because we had done this. And, and this is what I mean by such mixed toxic messages. Um, instead of, you know, really, I just, I mean, I've come such a, a huge way in my thoughts about sex and sexuality. And I don't, you know, you and I have talked about this quite a lot and. In that, um, I'm not saying that, I don't know. I don't know what I'm not saying, but what I am saying is that I think that sex is really important and it's really beautiful and it's really, um, like to make, come Stein to pleasure and intimacy, like, and I think that, um, it's really important for women to be able to access pleasure and intimacy on their own terms and in ways that they want to. Um, and you know, I'm not, I'm not someone who is, I, I just don't really think that I any longer believe in you must wait until marriage to have sex. Like, I think that was definitely the view that I held growing up. And I just don't believe that anymore. I just really, um, I really see the kind of beauty of. What sex was created for, for our bodies to kind of understand pleasure and closeness. And, um, and I think that that can absolutely happen outside of some sort of, uh, marriage commitment. Cause there's lots of, lots of more, uh, healthy relationships that exist outside outside of marriage, you know? Yeah. That's what I, well,

Gabby: I mean, I think without going down a sexual ethic conversation, that is way above my pay grade. I do think, you know, the intention, the distorted intention of. Eric. I'm very doing very heavy air quotes of waiting until marriage. Is that your, the idea is you're trying to provide this safe space for someone to be vulnerable in, right. A safe, healthy, nurturing, loving space for someone to be one of like one of the most vulnerable expressions of themselves, which is what, what I think is so ironic about this whole purity culture thing is it does so much damage that soft, vulnerable, intimate space that you just kind of are like, well, of course we're not, of course we can't healthily behave in this context because you set it up in such a shameful way that it no longer feels like a safe place regardless of if it is or not. So, yeah, it's so complicated. Should I read this next one? Yeah,

Mel: yeah. Go for it. Yep.

Gabby: I grew up in a very conservative Canadian Christian home when I was 11 years old. My mother took me on a passport to purity weekend trip to talk to me about sex and purity. The weekend consisted of several, a series of activities to demonstrate what having sex does to you. And one of the activity, one of the activities that has never left my mind was an activity where we filled a water balloon with water and then poke tiny holes in it with a needle, symbolizing things like kissing, letting a boy touch you sexually, et cetera. Basically all the gateway. To sex stuff. LOL, not even intercourse itself. I'm sorry.

Mel: I'm so sorry.

Gabby: I didn't mean to laugh, but that is yeah. Uh, the activity demonstrate is that after a while of doing these things, the water runs out and then the balloon can never be reinflated. I was then given a true love waits ring, which I wore into my wedding night. I don't remember biology being a part of the teaching at all. I never learned the names of my body parts until after I was married and taught myself. I only learned about the unfixable damage that sex outside of marriage does to you. When I started dating my now husband, I was 16 years old and he was 17. My parents and the church did everything they could to keep us pure. I wasn't allowed to drive in the same car with him for the first two years outside of our marriage of a relationship. And I wasn't allowed to be fully alone with him. I was only allowed to see him once a week. My mom drilled it into me, just how sinful sex was and how I could never come back from that. There was no talk about sex being beautiful within marriage. No. Talk about how it works. Practically, nothing like that. No one prepared me. He and I did everything right. We honored my parents in the church. We followed all the rules. We stayed quote, pure. We got married when I was 20 and he was 21. When it came to the wedding night, I panicked and bawled my eyes out, something inside me, screamed and rejected him in that way. We've been married over five years now and we still haven't managed to have intercourse that feels so strange to type out. It feels weird to say, I can't believe I'm telling someone this. I feel so much shame about it. And I know I shouldn't do. Mel: I'll go ahead. I never knew how deep this would cut me. I never realized that mental barriers can create physical barriers as well. I never knew so many things and I still don't know. We try all the time to just get on with it, but I can't stop panicking something deep inside me puts walls up and I don't know how to tear them down. I think about it every single day. And it weighs so heavily on me. I can't believe how gracious and loving and gentle my husband has been through all of this, but I wish he didn't have to be. And I don't know what to do.

Gabby: Well, I want to say

Mel: like,

Gabby: of course you can't stop panicking. Yeah. Like that was some, yeah. That's some really,

Mel: really toxic stuff, but yeah, he did not deserve to, to, to be. Put through the stuff that you were put through in your relationship, um, and then in your upbringing, and I'm not saying that to kind of sham on your parents or anything like that. You know, I just, I think, you know, often our parents are just doing what they think is the right thing, and what's kind of, you know, they're persuaded by the culture that they're, that they have been brought up in and, and the is all around them and there's all kinds of fears that they have for their children and stuff. Um, and, and I'm sure that, you know, you have your own work at night to day about how that has all gone down in your own family. But, um, I also want you to know you're not alone now. I have, I have so many people that I know who went through this purity culture have really, really struggled to have sex for a long time. Um, And, and have, have all, but given up on that, um, it's really, really difficult. And we just want to say that we love you. We're so we're so here for you. Um, I'm so sorry that, that you have had to, you know, handle all of this, um, and that you're handling together as a couple I'm sure is just so hard. Um, and that there is, there is Halen I'm. I know that. Um, and I really would love to recommend that you, that you talk to someone who's qualified, um, and, and sexual therapy and, and all of the stuff. There are people out there that are qualified to help help you through that. Um, And don't be afraid to reach out. Yeah.

Gabby: Yeah. And that's the thing with, like, anytime you shame someone into not doing something or into doing something, the fruit of that can only ever be more shame. And that is like part of all of this conversation, isn't it? Where it's like the shame cycle has to stop somewhere. Like, and because otherwise it just keeps going and it goes into shame about not being able to have sex and shame about not being able to do stuff. And there is there isn't supposed to be any shame around any of this or not. Isn't supposed to be there's permission to have no shame like associated with any of this stuff. But I, I agree. You're not alone. I have so many. Friends who were in the same exact boat. And that is, that is why we felt it was so important to talk about this on the podcast. Um, because these are conversations we're having in real time with our real friends. Um, and we wanted to open that conversation up broader to include all of you, um, because we do get to heal so much from hearing from one another and from learning from one another and together kind of stopping that shame cycle.

Mel: Um, yeah. And it's so interesting. Right? So, you know, Gabby, I talked to you a couple of months ago about, hi, this was a year as such, has been a big year of parenting for us and, and lots of big conversations with our ten-year-old and that I did not expect to be having to have needing to have so soon. Um, and you know, this was a year where we actually. I got to talk to him about sex and never in my wildest dreams. Would I have thought that I would be explaining what sex is to my 10 year old son at 10? But I mean, I think that's the, that has actually been part of my, some of my own halo is undoing an undo. One of the messages that I received is being able to formulate and articulate what sex is to my son, um, and a healthy way. And you know, I mean, the context around why we had talked with that is not anything weird. It's not, no, you know, I call it my tenure watching porn or something. No, no, no, no. Cause you know, there was, I could, I could sense from some of the, um, Conversations in the periphery of some of his friends, that there, there was a little bit of knowledge starting to accumulate and starting to paste bits and bits and pieces together. And I wanted to make sure that he didn't first hear about sex from his other 10 year old friends who don't know anything about, um, so aye, so we kind of bit the bullet and it wasn't an extensive conversation, but I really wanted to make sure that it was, um, that it was safe and that it was healthy and that it was positive. Um, you know, like that, I was able to say that, yep, lots of people have sex for, um, to, you know, to, to make, be a base, but they also have sex for pleasure. Um, and just like just kind of. All out of the get, make sure that that was in his hat, that it wasn't, that it wasn't a bite, um, that, you know, that whole, like it's only supposed to be this way in this way. And for these people, and at this time, you know, like I wanted to leave that a little bit open because I, you know, and I'm as much as you and I are talking about this stuff in real time, like when I'm talking Dave and I are kind of disco for in high, we're gonna handle this as parents in real time, you know? Yeah. Um, and, and that has been really Halen for me to be able to kind of undo some of that stuff for myself. Like I don't explicitly remember my parents being anything really about sex. I actually, I don't know if I should say those are not my bit. Yeah, no, I will. Um, like I remember when I was teenager. And, uh, after like youth group or whatever, all my friends would be, usually it would, they would come back to my house or we would go to somebody else's house, but we'd often come back to my house. And my mom loved being around like all of my friends. And she especially loved the crack with the boys. And like, um, she was kind of a tomboy mom. Um, she liked cheer, like joking, a bite and being, being a rind, you know, not in like a I'm cool cutaway, he just loved it. And, um, I remember my friend mark and I have a chat with my mum. We were maybe like 16 and having a chat with my mom about relationships. And so my, my guy friends would always go to my mom, like really for like relationship advice and stuff. And, uh, we were talking about, I can't remember how we got into it. We were talking about sex and, um, and S on some level, um, I remember my mom saying something. Yeah. But a bit of heavy. Patent's fine. And I think like all of my like guy friends were just like, Mel's mom. Oh my gosh. That's amazing. Mom actually always said she'd love to have been like a sex therapist. That's amazing. So I D I definitely didn't have like, um, a real toxic stuff that came from my family, I guess. But it was, it was definitely more of the, the church culture that I observed that in, but, um, Yeah, I heard it. You heard it here. Pat Reynolds says it's okay to have pass passed. Pastor's wife, a main whatever. She pastor's wife, whatever that means. I love that. I didn't ask her what she meant by that. Oh my gosh. That's not something you particularly want to know exactly what your mum's definitely heavy patent. Is it?

Gabby: Nope. Nope. Nope. Oh man. That's amazing. I love that.

Mel: Okay, so we have another, uh, voice note. Come on. Hi, Mel and Gabby. I'm so excited to hear. Your upcoming episode on, like you said, looking at purity culture and cheering a little bit more, um, from your experiences. I too have been, um, I've been, I would say unlearning, like I've been shutting off a lot of things that, uh, I believe should be true or like, uh, like themes that came from purity culture. Um, and I feel, I feel like I'm in a really great spot now with my relationship to myself and to my body, I will say that's growing, but I wanted to bring up that theme of like the flesh being bad and like the feeling or being taught that, um, you know, anything of the body was not good. Uh, and that was, yeah. Uh, for a lot of reasons, not even just in a sexual context, but I feel like I then needed to reframe a lot of that. The past couple of years, I was diagnosed with an anxiety disorder that I did not know I had growing up. And as a result, I I've learned more about how something like anxiety. That's just my example, how it, how it lives in my body or how it shows up. And so I listened to it more and I trust it more. And I didn't do that before. Like I didn't have that connection to my body before. And thankfully it's my therapist that has helped me get to this place. Just big shout out to her. Um, and it's something I can reclaim now. Thankfully it's not a part of my. Uh, beliefs. I do not find the body or the flesh to be bad and nothing of my body is bad and I'm really relieved for that. So I think I have a lot of growth in that area though, too, but that is something I've let go of loved here. And I'm really loved here in that. And I think, um, you know, even for other people who have written then, or that we've, you know, whose messages we have read, I, you know, that idea of how this is how this stuff shows up in our body, um, and anxiety and panic attacks and stuff that we've already heard about today. And this episode is so powerful to notice because our body is always like telling us stuff. It's always informing us about things. That's been such a mummy in a continued lesson for me. This idea of, um, trusting my body more and more and more and wanting to explore pleasure more and more and more on understand what feels good, what I like and what I don't like. Um, and when my body is telling me that something is off and when my body is telling me that I need to address something or whatever, whatever it is, I'm just so, so here for, um, doing that work, you know, I guess that disconnect, sorry. I was just going to say like that disconnect between your mind and your body is rife and purity culture, right? It's, it's almost like expected that you just cut off anything to do with how your body feels like, just don't listen to it. You gotta reject that. Right. Um, and absolutely in my. Thirties. It has been, um, a discovery of switching that back on, like I'm here. My body is not going away. My body is good. It has carried me through so many difficult and amazing things. And I am so grateful for it and I want to listen to it and I want to look after it and I want to show it pleasure. And, um, all of those things,

Gabby: yeah. Asking your body what it needs, what it wants and then listening. And that is the thing it goes back to like when we, uh, cut off those communication channels at such a formative age where we like try and, you know, When we don't let people communicate with themselves at such a young age when you're supposed to be learning how to do that, that is so damaging. Um, and it takes so, so long to undo that even, I mean, and there are so many ways we could get into this, like when it comes to like our relationship with food and exercise and rest and all of that stuff like that channel is just so critical to our wellbeing. And so anything we can do to support healthy communication between our bodies and our minds, you know,

Mel: definitely. And like, yeah, I think this, like the flesh is bad, you know, all that kind of stuff like this is, that is the narrative that creates so much disconnect and so much body shame. And so, so much. Um, compartmentalizing of, of all of the ferry, natural human things, ways that we can really pay attention to our body and love our body and love this love, this like, container that we have been given for this life. Right. Yeah. And I just don't believe that it was given to us to deny it or to, you know, like whittle it into some sort of ideal or to punish it. And I believe that this, this container of flesh that we have, um, that, that it was given to us to enjoy yeah. To give us access to enjoyment and, and to be generous and to, you know, to be, you know, good to all kinds of ways. Yeah.

Gabby: Uh, Hey, do you want to read the next

Mel: one? Sure. We've got one more email, one more voice note, and then we're going to wrap it up. But this email says I'm a junior, junior high and high school student minister and rural Illinois. So I've had to deal a lot with purity culture and a super conservative church. I grew up believing that my curvy body was wrong. I wasn't allowed to wear certain clothes in case I showed too much cleavage or in case my pants were too tight in my butt. I had to buy pumps that were too big around my waist because they didn't fit my butt in a way that was quote unquote modest and forget about two piece bathing suits. What makes me sad is watching my girls failed. Like they have to be ashamed of their bodies the same way I was ashamed of mine because of certain rules put in place by the church, thinking that having my card curvy body type was wrong, it was harmful. It was harmful for me growing up and that, and I hate to fail. What it could be doing to the young women. I teach, I want to change the stigma instead of telling girls to cover up. Why can't we teach young men how to treat women and their bodies with respect, unfortunately, in the rural conservative church, that's unheard of, for them, it's easier to just tell young women to cover up. And I feel helpless to try and change it, although I will try and do my best to try. Oh, those young people are so lucky to have you, for sure. They're so lucky to have someone that has that, um, that, uh, unlearned, you know, PO posture towards this stuff. And I'm sure that it feels like such a, uh, an uphill battle to try and try and kind of undo or manage some of those messages. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, but really like being a safe place for girls. To come to talk about that stuff is it's never wasted to like, just, yeah,

Gabby: yeah, yeah. I mean, we haven't really talked about this too much yet on, in this episode, partially because it just, the people who have submitted all of these have been women. And then of course our experience through this stuff on our own has been through the perspective of women. Um, so we haven't talked a ton about how boys grow up in this culture, um, yet, but we both have sons. And I know that that is at the forefront of our minds of, you know, she says being in, you know, instead of telling girls to cover up, why don't we teach him how to treat women in their bodies? I just think girls or boys or whatever. Teaching kids that their bodies are good, that other people's bodies are good. And that you need to honor that and honor that sacred thing that is your body and be kind and be good and be respectful. Um, it has no, there's nothing to do with shame in any shape or form, you know, I mean, I just want to say, like, I know we don't have a ton of male listeners, I don't think, but just if you're a guy and you've tagged along with us this far, um, I don't want to, I don't want you to feel left out. Um, and also if you have any followup experiences that you would like to share with us after this episode, we'd be open to hearing them. Um, and I also just wanted to affirm this woman. Experience growing up, like with a body type that was automatically told to her it was bad and sex overtly sexual in a negative way. Like, I totally resonate with that. Like I was like one of the first of my friends to have, have boobs and like my tea. And it was just like, I think, especially when you're in a context, I don't know for me, my experience was because I was one of the first ones. I was also kind of the Canary down the mine of, for youth leaders of how do we handle this? Like, how do we manage her? How do we make sure she's okay. And that was like a shameful and weird experience in and of itself. But I feel like I was always being told to cover up for stuff. And I was just like, put like, I'm literally wearing the same shorts that girl. And you're not telling her to cover up. You're just telling me. And I don't know, it taught me to be ashamed of my body at a very young age. And so I really deeply resonate with this email.

Mel: Okay. Yeah. My T I T you know, I was an early bloomer as well. And, um, you know, I, I can remember comments about my boobs, you know, I mean, just all the time. And it was, you know, it was something that you didn't want to, um, you didn't want to be annoyed by it because then it would just. Put fuel on the fire, but you also didn't want to be like, he couldn't be proud of it because, and you're just like welcoming problems. So your stuff getting some sort of boob, double bind,

Gabby: also known as the bra.

Mel: Oh yeah. Yeah. That, that message of like, um, just let's let's not just zero in and focus in on, on people's clothes, on their bodies and, and think about what's most respectful, um, towards everybody's bodies, right? Gabby: Yeah, let's move along and we will go to this last, a voice note and then wrap up this episode. Hey, Gabby

Mel: and Mel, I just wanted to share a short story of, um, something that happened to me maybe within the past month or so. Um, so my husband and I had been having a fairly busy week and hadn't had a lot of time to be intimate with each other. And so for one of the first times, in our three years of marriage, we decided to schedule sex. And, um, we had planned for Friday evening after work to make some time to get together and spend some quality time together. Um, but that same evening later on in the evening, we had scheduled with friends, um, to go to a movie. And so we were both home from work and, um, back in the bedroom and everything like that. And. We were just starting to get intimate. When I thought I heard a knock on the door and quickly paused and said, Hey, did you hear that? And before either of us could even get up to investigate or find out what was going on. I heard a good friend of mine come in through the door and announce herself very loudly. Hey, I forgot something over here and I really need it. I'm just coming in to grab it. And then I'll be out of the way. And, um, she, you know, grabbed her things, headed back out and left. And, um, the interesting thing about this story is that really. Was such a mood killer for me because I was

Gabby: instantly

Mel: flooded with guilt and shame. And I think it's such a relevant, um,

Gabby: little anecdote of just how ingrained it is in me,

Mel: that feeling of shame and guilt. Um, and that's really because of purity culture and growing up in a church where really. We never talked about sex. And if we did, it was always from the aspect of like, this is a bad, dirty thing. We don't do that. I'm really not any good, healthy conversations going on about sex when I was growing up. And, um, even though I'm in like a very committed and happy marriage, I still get those feelings of shame and guilt. Um, just over the fact that my friends suspected that something was up, kinda knew what was going on and quickly removed herself from the situation. I still felt that overwhelming sense of shame and totally ruined the mood for the rest of the night. So Gabby: it's kind of funny now, but in the moment Mel: it was so embarrassing. Hope you enjoy a little laugh. Bye. Gabby: Oh. I know. I mean, that is, it's an interesting point. Like shame within our communities, like our own personal friend groups, like about having sex, a Mel: block, lock your doors, lock your freaking doors. I mean, Gabby: happened to Chris and I, I do have a story about this. I'm going to try and fit it and we'll see what we can do here. So, uh, when Chris, this is when I was pregnant, crystal came back from shore at the time, our lighting guy was, uh, renting a room, a bedroom from our us. Um, and he wasn't on the road with us at that point. Um, but he, we, we offered his replacement who was on the road for this, for the weekend, his bedroom, or he offered it anyway. He was staying with us. Um, And Chris got home and no one else was home. And we were like, we should just like, quit, have some sex before we have this guest coming to stay with us over the weekend. Um, so we, we had sex, it was great. Um, whatever. And then as I was getting up to get dressed fully naked, fully pregnant, the bedroom door opens, and I'm just like, I'm just standing there, like no facing the door fully. And I just like, Oop, screamed started dying, laughing. It was this guy I'd never met before or seen. We were just like Chris and I were just like dying, laughing because like, what do you, what do you do in that instance? And basically what had happened was our roommate had told him. Yeah. So the bedroom that you're going to be staying in, if you just go down the hall, it's the first one at the end of the hall and he got it mixed up and he thought it was our bedroom and basically walked in on us. And I felt so bad for him. He like, like, there's just, no, I felt like worse for him than I did for me. Cause I was just like, okay, whatever. It's just my body. I'm fine with it. Like you, how do you recover? Like seeing someone completely naked and you have to stay with them now. Yeah. Yeah. That's there is no recovery. Like, I felt so bad and yeah, we addressed it right away, obviously. Oh yeah. I was like, well welcome. It's like welcome to. Like, we'd just made a joke out of it, but it was

Mel: embarrassing. Oh yeah. I mean, there's that? Yeah. There's that sense of like, I mean, I w all, well, like Dan's mom and my dad both have cased our house. Um, and so, and it's, and like, they're both quite prone to just, uh, like a drama, just to call it a call in and they just let themselves in. And, you know, Dave and I work from home, so. We, you know, we, when the kids are at school, it's, you know, I'm better during the day. Yeah. I'm better during the day than I am when

Gabby: I'm so many of us are. Right.

Mel: So, but I'm also, I'm always just really aware that one of our parents could call it at any stage. And so, you know, we've got one, one ear on the situation at all times. I mean, I think

Gabby: that's probably wise to be honest.

Mel: Oh yeah. That's, that is interesting. Um, that it flooded this, this girl with guilt and shame, as we know, as though people wouldn't imagine that anybody's having sex, you know, as that is that it would be a huge surprise or a huge judgment that you would be having sex with your husband. Um, no. And yeah, so let's say. We we know for sure that we have not covered every aspect and nuance to this very deep and, um, full on conversation. Yeah. But we really hope that we've normalized some of the experiences that other people have been three on that, um, that even in sharing your stories, that has been Halen in some way. Um, and I think for me at the rate of all of this is, is it's always a fight. Um, really wanting women to trust themselves with their bodies and their desires and undoing so much learning so that we can build that trust again. And I want to rate just as we, if it's okay. As we, as we close out this, this little excerpt from untamed by Glennon Doyle, or she says we weren't born distrusting and fearing ourselves, that was part of our tanning. We were taught to believe that who we are and our natural state is bad and dangerous. They convinced us to be afraid of ourselves. So we do not honor our own bodies, curiosity, hunger, judgment. Experience or ambition. Instead, we lock away our true selves, women who are best at this disappearing act earn the highest praise she's so selfless. Hmm. Can you, can you imagine the epitome of womanhood is to lose oneself completely? That is that, that is the end goal of every patriarchal culture, because a very effective way to control women is to convince women to control themselves. Gabby: I mean, I've read that book, but I just forgot how good that portion it's so well said. And so encompassing of everything we just talked about ,

Mel: it's like, it's, it's lifelong work to trust yourself, but I think, you know, um, having to unpick so much of, of purity culture adds to that as well, but we really, you know, we really are grateful for anyone who's listened through, who's contributed to this episode. Um, honestly means a huge amount to Gabby and I to hear from me. Um, we really do appreciate it and thank you for sharing your stories with us. Thank you. And if you have anything to add, if you want to, um, to kind of chime in on the after of this then plays day, you can always reach out to us and DMS, feel free to tag us in any posts of what you've maybe taken away. Or, um, if you want to share the episode, feel free, or if you want to email us, please stay. And our email is hello@makinganeffortpodcast.com.

Gabby: Yeah, until next time guys.