Episode 27: Navigating Friendships With or Without Kids

>>> Click here to read the computer generated transcript (note that the transcript isn't perfect)

Gabby: Welcome to the making an effort podcast, the podcast where you get to drop in on a conversation between two friends, talking about all the things they make an effort with. And some of the things they don't and this week we are talking about something I'm really excited to talk about. We are talking about the relationship dynamic between married with kids. And your friends who are single with no kids. Um, and just that relationship dynamic. And I have to say this conversation was sparked by a book that both Mel and I read this summer, um, called ghosts, by Dolly Alderton. Uh, it's a fantastic read if you haven't read it yet. And you're looking for a good, a good end of summer. I think we have both would recommend that one, right? Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and one of the main themes, and this is not a spoiler, um, in that book is just kind of the main characters, evolving relationship with her best friend from middle school. Um, Or even primary school. I forget. Anyway, it doesn't matter. Um, but she's still single and dating and in her thirties, professional and her friend is a mom and has a young one and another one on the way and moving out to the suburbs and just the strain, those different life stages. Has on their friendship and how it changes the dynamic of their friendships. So we thought it would be a good conversation to have here as well, because we've experienced that. Right. Sorry. I feel like I just talked a lot there.

Mel: No, you're you're right on the money. Yeah. It's so, so Gabby, Gabby read that book recommended it. I picked it up, um, and read it and we're kind of exchange and notes. And in fact, actually you never really go back to my on. I feel like that's true. You were like, tell me what you think. I want to hear a folder. And so I sent you like 20 Marcopolos of a deep dive on each them. My feelings, the plot, the ending, the whole thing. And then I got radio silence. That's true. I'm not quite clearly not over that yet.

Gabby: Um, stay tuned for the after party where I share all of my thoughts on ghosts by Al Dolly Alderton. No.

Mel: Um, so I think. Um, when I read it for the first bit of the book, it was all like, oh, I love Nina. She's so cool. She's city girl. I love this whole vibe of her. Like, you know, work at night didn't in life. And, um, I relate to her blah, blah, blah, blah, and then enters Catherine and her friend as this dynamic starts to kind of unravel and kind of expand and you get to kind of sense the difference. Aspects of their relationship, kind of, yeah. Like changing and evolving. It felt so uncomfortable.

Mel: I know me too. It was like, I was like, oh, oh, okay. Um, I might be Catherine shit.

Gabby: I was like, I don't want to be Catholic. I know, literally, and again, I promise these are not spoilers. We would not give you guys spoilers, but there is a scene where she is visiting Catherine at home. And like, they, they can barely have a conversation for Catherine being like, I forget what the daughter's name is, but like stop that. Or like, Nope, don't do that. You need a biscuit, you need a biscuit. And the daughter keeps like interrupting her, asking for snacks and like just all of this stuff. And you're like, Oh, my gosh. I've had that conversation with my friends at least 20 times, like, oh, so yes. Anyway, I think, I mean, I've got lots to say about this topic. I'm

Mel: excited. I'm excited to hear what you have to say as soon as you didn't tell me already, but I just like immediately, I just feel like I fail so much, uh, guilt about it. Um, often, hi. Hi, my hi. I must come across at times with friends, my single friends, or even just like my married friends that don't have kids and that, you know, and for different reasons, like I have friends who have struggled with infertility I've, you know, like have all kinds of a spectrum of reasons why. Your friends, maybe aren't in that same place of growing their family. And, um, and I just, yeah, I feel, I feel so self-conscious, about it, like one of the things that, is so interesting to think about and that I feel is probably one of the strongest sensations that I have is that I have this overwhelming feeling of not wanting my friends to think that I've changed.

Gabby: Yeah right.

Mel: So I don't want them to feel like I've, I'm a mother, I've been a mother for a decade. And I, but I still have this feeling when I'm around my friends who are single or friends that are childless, that I don't want to ever come across as this, as the Kathryn, as the kind of smug Fran. Um, and sometimes I, I get that feeling that I want to like justify or like play dine. Yeah. You know, my motherhood, or like make it fake, make it like Brazy or, you know, that kind of thing. Um, but at the same time, so that's the one hand. And then on the other hand, I have this really deep, longing and desire for my friends to be really involved in my kid's life. And to like, love them and for them to have relationship with my kids and vice versa and to know them and you know, all that kind of stuff, which I mean is a huge expectation from, for me to hold of anyone anyway. Cause they might not want in any way to do that. But it's that kind of dichotomy of, I want to play a dine, my motherhood so that I can still access this friendship in a, in a way that makes them feel like I'm still me and that that's not the all encompassing thing in my life, but also I really want them to like, um, be involved in my mother. Yeah, absolutely. You know? Absolutely.

Gabby: And I think, I think good friends do, and that is kind of what I mean, not so it's just completely refer back to. Over and over again, I just, it is a helpful touch point because it, it means that we don't have to cite specific real life. Examples. We can just point to the book, I think, want to

Mel: hear examples? Well, I mean, I've gotten away with

Gabby: not having examples. Well, say like, you know, the character, Nina, the single unmarried non mother character, who's the protagonist of the book. She talks about how like, You know, as a single person, she really, it felt like she entered into her friend's life and like fully, like she babysat, she took her, you know, took her goddaughter out regularly. She showed up for the birthday. She sh she like showed up with meals. She was at the christening, like she was the involved friend. And so then to not feel like her friend had anything to give her. On the flip side of like, you're not there for my book launch. You're not interested in my love life. Your, you know, all these big things that are like, I'm my big things in my life might look different to yours, but they're still big things and they're still important and they're still forming my life. And I think that was kind of. I mean, that was like my big message that I took away from that book was just like, of course I know those things, but just to hear someone articulate them that way was really powerful. I think for me, the thing that I felt the most like called out for, I guess is maybe the word, the term I'll use is the, the not being able to have a. Conversation with your friend while they're there. And also look after your kid and being like, how do you, how do you bring someone in? Who wants someone who wants to be brought in? So let's just assume that you having, you know, your friends want to be brought in someone who wants to be brought in to the chaos and who gets that. There's going to be chaos and that's okay. But also not, I don't know. Just acknowledge everyone in the room to a certain extent, you know, and not just have it be like about, oh, sorry, he just needs snacks or, oh, you know, she just needs this or whatever, or kind of, I don't know, I am kind of rambling now, but that was like my big thing that I kind of took away was how do I be present with my friends in the moment and make them feel included, but also. Like be a present mom as well. Cause like that tension is really tricky. Right? Is it a, is it a thing, right. I

Mel: don't know that it's possible. And I think that's, I think that's really hard. I think, you know, I mean, obviously we're, we're only speaking from our own experiences, so I, you know, um, I think it's, it's near on impossible. Like yesterday's a good example. Right? So met up with my friend, uh, yesterday, um, single, um, no kids, uh, Mason girl, and w th the four of us were there as well. And it was really kind of a crazy weather day. So we had a two restaurant and like a cafe, and like, my kids are really. Mm, more or less well behaved in public, but they're, they kind of know the drill. Like if you give them the right food, they'll, they'll do their thing. Um, but it was still like, uh, I need the toilet. Okay. Hang on just one second, you know, like, okay. Tell me about your work. Tell me about your, like who you did and what's happening. Um, how's your family, all that kind of stuff. Like, yeah. It's punctuated by squeeze, no ketchup. It's punctuated by running some, running someone to the toilet, finding

Gabby: a YouTube video.

Mel: Yes. Like not, not that one, this one. Yeah. Um, or, you know, like. Sounded deaf. Would you, would you get, would you cut that up? You know, like that kind of so triggered by that and I'm just sitting there like. Well, you know, it's almost like afterwards at a week. So we had this broken conversation. I got the highlights of what's been going on with her, you know, but did she feel like it was quality time? Definitely not. Did I feel like it was quality time? Absolutely not. And so it's, it's almost like, um, the optimum time would be, would be arrive like just before bedtime. Yeah. I mean that in itself saying that outline actually feels like, are you, are you? I was

Gabby: like, oh right. Okay. No, but I

Mel: know if you can guarantee, see that there's going to, it's not going to be a whole hoop, which I never can. Um, like the optimum time, if you're not leaving your house or something to go and meet up with your friend, if you want to do the kind of both on. Here, look at my kids here. They are play it. Let's play together for a sec. Yeah. Yeah. We'll chat, chat with your kids. Okay. Bedtime kids. And then you crack open your bottle of wine and you get an evening to chop properly with your friends once your kids are. Um, but like, it just fails. That just feels really like hard. And I know that that just is, is when it's going to be. Yeah. My terms. Yeah. So that's the, that's the, that's the kind of high night where it's like, I can't leave the house. You're going to have to come to me. This is on my terms. But I really do from reading that book, I feel like actually, it's, this, these relationships are important to me, which they are then actually I need to make sure that I'm going, Hey, Hey, I want to spend time with you. I don't want to be distracted by my kids. Let's do something it's just the two of us or whatever, like, yeah. And I even like gave him my brother and my brother is single. And. Um, it doesn't have any kids. And I feel like even that, you know, like we've had big conversations recently where that's, you know, that's come up for us, as siblings was like, oh, we don't really ever spend time together outside of my family where he's being an uncle and it's kind of chaotic and stuff like that. Yeah. And that that's really, it's just important for relationships. Yeah. Everywhere. Nevermind that specific

Gabby: though. Absolutely. I think, I think that's something that. I have, I do feel like I try to do that. Like we have, I have two main hangs with, or types of hangs with my. My married with no kids or single, no kids, friends. And the one type is, Hey, let's go grab a coffee, just you and me or whatever, let's grab dinner or whatever. And obviously those don't get to happen as often as I would. Like, just because childcare is, especially in 2020, you know, a nightmare to sort, um, 20, 20, 20, 21. It's fine. It's all the same thing. Um, Then the other, the other type is, Hey, would love to have you around for dinner. I'll cook you something kid, child will be present. It will be a little like you're coming. Like I was, I'm kind of like, would you want to join our chaos tonight? Like, you know what you're getting into literally zero hard feelings if you don't want to, but I just want you to know that you're welcome and you're wanted, and. You know, there is a little bit of both. I mean, I'm not saying don't do this perfectly, but in my head, that's kind of how I categorize like the two different ways that I connect with my friends and my, even my mom friends. Like I feel like while we have talked about the joys of getting your kids together and they entertain each other and you guys get to hang out, like that is a total type of

Mel: safety, the safety in

Gabby: numbers, friends. Yeah, exactly. I think I also. Like there, there are mom friends that I miss because we never have a real conversation, you know, instead of just one person kind of checked out, you have two people checked out to a certain degree, you know, it's not that we don't care. It's just that you can't fully care about at all, all the time. And it's really hard to be present in those moments. And that's just, that is just the reality. No one needs to feel bad about that. Um, but I

Mel: wonder if there's something like really lovely, sorry. No, no,

Gabby: literally none of my thought it's fine.

Mel: Oh, I wonder if there's just something really lovely for our friends that don't have kids to have that be initiated by us as well. Like this is something I'm thinking about a lot recently, because I guess for, I guess for our friends, You know, don't have that, that kid factor to factor in. They don't, you know, they probably just want to be with us by ourselves, but don't really know how to yeah. Say that was offensive. Absolutely. No. And I guess, yeah, I just think that that. I can imagine that would be a really difficult thing to like try and communicate to your friends without being like, I really love your kids. I don't really want to hang out with your kids today. Like I just love some time with you. Um, and I think that, you know, that conversation, if you're defensive or, you know, kinda, I don't know, already feeling a bit uneasy about your friendships and your motherhood and how they all work together. Could, it could be tricky to, you know, to receive that. So I wonder if some of the initiation of managing that dynamic of that friendship should really be on, on the people with kids to be able to yeah. Initiate that. Yeah. And then I just feel tired talking about it, about having to initiate things.

Gabby: I mean, well, I'm not as, and I mean, they always go back to the book, but it like really in real life, they talk about that where it's like the, the, the tricky reality of this dynamic is that when you're a mom, especially a very little kids, you ju you do have a finite capacity. And finite energy. And it's not to say that if you don't have kids, there are not stresses on your time and your energy and things that are draining you. That is not, they're not mutually exclusive. They are mutual. I, whatever. Anyway, I don't have enough coffee for that thought. But what I was going to say was there has to be the compromise is I will show up when I can. But understand that in this season of life, that might look really different to how it used to, and that doesn't make me a bad person or a bad friend. I, I I'm just necessarily, I'm just going to give you what I have in the moment. And will you accept me in this raw form because that's, that's quite a vulnerable thing. And I think sometimes, you know, as a society, We don't really ask. We expect when it comes to this relationship dynamics. So like we expect that our friends are going to like come to the christenings and the showers and they're going to be fully invested and they're going to do this. But I think a lot of people, a lot of times people just want to be asked as opposed to, that's just the default of how it's going to. B, if that makes sense,

Mel: like, as in, we would really love for you to be there.

Gabby: Yeah. Or like even just being vulnerable enough to say, I think it takes a certain level of vulnerability to say, and to admit to one of your friends, I don't have this all under control and I, I'm kind of in over my head many days of the week. And will you still love and accept and be my friend and be present to me in this state that I am currently in. And I think that's kind of what I mean is, and then it obviously it's a two-way street, but I think a lot of moms don't ask that. I think a lot of times we try to do it all and then we get pissed off when. We're like what w you know, it didn't, it didn't happen. Does that make sense?

Mel: Yeah. Or you have, or you have this scenario where like you do, you do go out with your friend or whatever, and you're just so tired and then you fail, like, You don't want to be a boar talking about high tire GRE and all that kind of stuff. But if you were just kind of straight up with them before you went like, Hey, I'm running on like a lot of broken sleep here. Um, I really want to see you, but I might not be on my best forum. This is, this is where we're at. Is that okay? Rather than either going in and being like, oh, I'm so sleep deprived a little blah, and like centering yourself as the only one. Yes. In a world that has big yeah,

Gabby: yeah. Demands.

Mel: Um, cause that's that's, that can be, uh, that can be a tricky one, you know, for, for anybody I, this, and this is the thing, and it's really hard. And from our perspective to be objective about this. Because we're so immersed in this world of, of children and family stuff or whatever. But I do, I do think that it's a, it's a different energy required to parent little children. Um, you know, like I have a friend who I have an amazing friend. Is single and has, I mean like w faithfully there for every single friend and stage of, of friendship and on everyone getting engaged, everyone getting married, everyone having their babies, she was throwing the hand parties. She was throwing the shores the most incredible. It's like she was everybody's godmother. Like she just is the best. And a couple of years ago, she adopted. Um, a child and is doing this by herself. And, you know, we had a conversation recently and she was like, I mean, I've been, I was with all of my friends through everything. I mean, she babysat everybody's kids. She was the one that when, when the parents wanted a night out, she would go and set in or, you know, like acutely involved in everybody. Family life. And we just had this conversation where she was like, I mean, I was there, but I didn't, I like this is Def that's a different

Gabby: level

Mel: of like understanding the reality of the tone of the responsibility. Right. That that is a no way takes away from any anyone else's hard, right. Or anyone else's demanding careers on other relationships. Um, but there is, I think something up quite the neediness of, of parenting and small children that just is capacity Richardson and so many ways. Yeah. Well, and I think

Gabby: that's kind of what I am saying. Right. And Dolly does touch on it on her book of like her friend was constantly trying to present this very together front. And she's like, I'm actually really happy to be in the mess with you, but you're not letting me in. Like, and that's maybe what I was trying to say earlier is being truly invited into the inner sanctum and be like this, this it's very vulnerable to say. I'm in the thick of it right now. And I, this is how I can show up as a friend. And this is what I really desire from my friends, um, in this season of life. And is that okay? You know, like, will you still love me? Will you still be there for me? Um, it, it, it requires vulnerability that I think sometimes. We aren't always super excited to give, uh, partially because it's very vulnerable being a mom, like parenting out in the open and especially, you know, when you have friends who maybe don't have kids, it's not what they can't understand. It's just that you wonder if they're going to you just wonder if they're going to. Make you think that you're a bad parent or think that you're not doing something like there is like that, that fear of like, if I don't present that this is all peachy keen, will I still be esteemed by them? In the way that I was before,

Mel: am I going to, am I going to put them off this idea for themselves? Am I going to sign to ungrateful for what I have, you know, like, am I, all of those things go through my head, you know, like, um, am I gonna. I don't want to discredit my children in front of other people. Like, I don't want to, you know, I don't want them to sound like, oh, it's Vivian so annoying or anything like that, you know, all of that stuff. But at the same time there isn't, there is a line of where you need to kind of really project the reality of

Gabby: the kale. And that's also what friendship is for like friendship is for like, Going through those moments of life where you're like this sucks. Like, you know, I need someone to talk to about this, to like be there for me. And, uh, yeah, I also, I mean, not to totally switch, but I also wanted to talk about how I think that our society prioritizes tends to prioritize and elevate family needs and family events. Above other types of events. So like, you know what, like families with children. Yes, yes. Sorry. I should have, I should have, um, obviously a couple with no kids is still a family just to be clear, but families with children, like our society tends to elevate their celebrations and their needs and they're like over everyone else's and I think. On our side as moms with kids, like one of the things that I want to do be better at is elevating the wins and the losses that are not family related because they are still huge. Like, you know, people. Spend their lives, like building incredible careers and marriages and nonprofit work, and all of those things are deeply valuable and worthy of celebrating and, you know, marking. Yeah. I think that that's something I know I could do better at probably. Um,

Mel: isn't there an episode of sex in the city where, um, Oh, yeah. Where she goes to her friend's house and she is, is wearing these fancy shoes. And one of the shoes goes messed up or the,

Gabby: or someone steals her shoes, someone steals out of it. Let me show her what's up. Yes, it was at a baby shower. So she's like the only single non-married showing up at her friend's baby shower. She has her fancy shoes. And like her friends are super, like, they are well off. Like you can tell, even in the episode, like it's, they are of a certain like New York status and her friend makes all of her, all of them take their shoes off at the door, um, for sanitary reasons. And Carrie's like, I really don't want to, like, these are my really nice shoes and she's like, come on, Carrie. And then her shoes gets stolen

Mel: and then Carrie, and then Carrie's really stopped. And her friend's like, come on, Carrie is just a pair of shoes as though it's like nothing. That's such a, that's such a good, um, example of that kind of centering, you know, like, don't be so precious about your shoes. Like it's, that's not, that's so not important. Whereas, you know, she was just like, actually, no, that is important to me. And so. She did she send like a, um, a registry, a gift registry, um, list for herself for something. And the only item on the gift registry was this pair of shoes. I think so. Yeah. And the friend sends them like, you know, like, congratulations on the, that's the birth of your new shoes, or I can't remember exactly what it is, but she kinda, she kinda gets it, you know? Um, but yeah, like that dine plan of what's important. To, to people who aren't in us, like grow in their family space is really key. And also, do you know what, like, I feel like my kids are 10 and five nine, and you know, I feel like I'm merchant from them. That like really needy fears, parenting. And, um, um, and I guess maybe now I feel like I, I, I don't, I don't feel as defensive about this conversation as I might've felt three or four years ago when I was in the fog and the deep and the deep, deep fog, um, where I feel like I maybe can manage that this conversation and we've been less defensive and a way bit more open-minded and tander oppo, you know, The real reciprocity that's needed, you know, so, you know, my kids are way more, uh, easier to like, Do stuff independently and yeah. You know, like, yeah. So there is more, I do feel like I have more capacity for other things than other relationships and time to invest in that as, as they get a little bit older. Yeah.

Gabby: Yeah. No, I think that it is a lot of it is just seasonal and that's maybe one of the things to hold in the back of your mind. It's like, especially with some of these longer term relationships, You've been friends for over, you know, a couple decades. Hmm. Like this is also just a season that will ebb and flow and it just happens to be a really tricky one and know. You don't need

Mel: it. Did you feel like, yeah, one of the, one of the things I'm interested to hear from you, because I think some, some of this stuff can be, I guess, thought about dependent on what stage everybody else in your circle is at. And at what stage you are the, you kind of enter into the having kids stage. And we maybe talked about this. I can't remember if it's you and I have just talked about this or if we have on this podcast, but you know, like when we, when we got married, For the first time we were living in London and like, nobody, like we were just doing the, you know, carefree London life, um, staying out late, working in the set aid, having all the nice things done. Okay. My dream life,

Gabby: I will never get over the fact that you've lived my dream life.

Mel: Um, it was, yeah, it was really, really special time for us. And then. Pregnant with Levi. And we were the only ones really, other than a colleague at work who was pregnant at the same time like that, that we're having a baby in our circle of friends and our social circle. Um, and so we, you know, we quickly decided we wanted to move back to Northern Ireland for loads of different reasons as well. But also, like, I just couldn't imagine what it would be like to raise a baby in the city, like with our family and stuff like that. And then coming back to Northern Ireland, it was like, we were kind of one of the last people in our social circle to have, have gone ahead and had had a kid or tried to have a baby, um, because it's culturally. So, you know, that's, the trajectory is, you know, at 12 you get kids. You'd be a child, a child bride. Um, you know, like most of like most people are getting married in their early twenties having their first kids in their mid twenties and so on and so on. Um, and it, it just felt really, really different, but I know that that's, that's, there's been, it's been different for you as well. Yeah.

Gabby: I kind of had friends who had already. Had kids on the one side and then I still have a good circle of friends, um, who, none of them have kids yet. And we're the only ones bringing them, Danny. And they're like fair. They all have been, I mean, incredible to us, like good to me and Chris, good to Danny. Honestly, I feel so lucky that we have. Them in our lives like that. They're, they're our neighbors as well. So it's like, they're just right around the corner. We did, they were our quarantine group back in 2020. They they're a lockdown crew and you know, they've done babysitting they've. We went all, went out to a vineyard here in Nashville. And I actually, I was the one that's like, come on guys, let's pack a picnic. We'll watch the sunset. It's going to be great, like everyone together. So we all did it. We caravan down the 40 minutes to the vineyard and I spent the whole hour and a half. Well, Chris and I tag teamed chasing Danny around. Him screaming and kicking because he couldn't go certain places or wander into the car park. And like, I was just, it was one of those moments where I was like, watching this happen as an outsider and seeing all my friends, like, you know, Eat there we sandwiches and drink there. We glasses of wine with like Danny screaming in the background and being like,

Mel: I'm so sorry. And they were, like I said, to have the shits thinking

Gabby: about that. I mean, they were wonderful. So wonderful. And they were like, sit down, like we'll watch him unit, you have a glass of wine, eat something. You haven't eaten anything yet. Like, they were wonderful, wonderful, like literally every step of the way. But like, it was just like one of those ones where I was like, oh gosh, like this was not, it. This was not. Like we needed like a pen.

Mel: Yeah.

Gabby: We needed a babysitter. This is, you know, but you just live and learn. And I think that's kind of the balance is like you as the PA, like the friend with the kid, learning what your boundaries are as a family, and then, and then making sure you include your friends and. Learning from your mistakes and being willing to show up again. And I don't know. And sometimes like, yeah, like we try to get a babysitter. Um, when we hang out with our friends as much as possible, not because Danny is not welcome, but because we do value those friendships and we do value getting to have quality time or, you know, we'll invite them over after Danny's gone to bed. Um, not cause we don't want Danny. Don't want them to have a relationship with him. Of course we do. But because it requires like conversation and friendship to grow. So,

Mel: yeah, that's good. That's healthy. I mean, this is, this is obviously a one side of this conversation. Um, so I wonder if. There are those of you out there that are listening, that don't have kids and have lots of friendships where there are kids around and stuff. If he want to pitch in and tell us your experience, we would love to hear from you around that stuff. Um, on if we have got this committee politely wrong, then feel free to let us know. Um, yeah. And you should absolutely go and read ghosts by Dolly Alderton and get in our DMS and tell us what you think. Uh, we would love to hear from you. You can. Reach out to us and Instagram or email, which is hello@makinganeffortpodcast.com.

Gabby: Yes. And this podcast episode was not sponsored by Dolly Alderton. However, if she ever wanted to be our friend, we would very much love that.

Mel: I'm totally

Gabby: into that. Anyway. Thanks for listening. And we will. Talk to you guys next week.