Episode 40: Let’s Talk About Money

Continuing on in our series of 'tricky things we don't talk about in friendship' we thought we'd have an honest chat about money; our family history with it, how we manage it now, why it's important to acknowledge privilege and security and how it comes up in friendships. It's a juicy one!

>>> Click here to read the computer generated transcript (note that the transcript isn't perfect)

Gabby: Welcome to the making an effort podcast, the podcast where you get to drop it in a conversation between two friends, discussing all the things they make an effort with and some of the things they don't. And today. This has been one of our topics that we have had on our list of to discuss, since I think the inception of this podcast, I believe. And I'm, so I'm really excited to talk about it. We are talking about money, specifically money and how's it, how it pertains to our friendships and how we interact socially with one another. Uh, Being transparency and where money comes from. And. Also just trying to get more comfortable talking around this topic that I think a lot of us can feel a little bit squirmish around. Um, and I'm Gabby,

Mel: I'm Mel

Gabby: lovely Mel here with me. And yeah.

Mel: How are you feeling about this by talking about this? I feel like you're, you have a, quite a neutralized. Attitude towards talking about that stuff. That's what I'm picking up. No, yeah.

Gabby: Neutralized as in like, I feel comfortable with it or like, yeah. Yeah. Um, I would say I here's the thing and maybe this will play into, and I, I mean, I think there's always like I have, I'm not ashamed about anything, about money, but I always kind of. Having the back of my head, if I share more about finances or talk about money, will it influence how people think about me? And I don't know where that comes from. So I'm willing to kind of go there and see what happens. Okay. But, but, you know, that's the only, I guess, hang up, maybe I have, or not hang up. But the only thing that feels a little. I dunno, hesitant. I don't know. How are you feeling about this one?

Mel: Yeah, I'm feeling okay about it. I mean, I've got really comfortable talking about money with, within the context of like the coaching that I do with women in business. That's like a big, big, big thing that we talk about a lot, because so many. Struggle with the idea of charging for the work that we do and all that kind of stuff. Right. So I think in that, in that context, I'm really comfortable talking about money, but I'm also just really aware that it's super nuanced and personal. And I think it's probably fair for us to say at the outset that we will only be able to give our own experience of yeah. Husband like in our history and our, you know, formative adult years, um, all that kind of stuff. So, and I think that that's actually just really important, um, to, to talk about money in a way that is reflective of the full picture rather than just where you are now, because I don't know about you, but it Def like. Like where I am financially now has, is not where I have always been or where my family history has been with money. So, but it definitely provides a big backdrop. Doesn't it like our own kind of upbringing around money, money conversations, how your family handled money w how you felt in terms of like, I don't know, just yeah. Security and all that kind of thing. And our, and our family history. What was that like for you? Gabby: Yeah, I mean, I think that all of those things play a huge role, I think, too, just to talk about the importance of talking about it for a second, I think he getting to hear other people's money stories, I guess, for lack of a better phrase is. I think it just helps demystify some things, because I think sometimes money and how we make it and what we do with it when we have it. And all of those things can kind of feel, or for like a, a huge part of my life. And even to this day sometimes feels like a bit of a mystery. Like it's like we all kind of are, you know, show up and it's like, How did we get here? But yeah, yeah, no. Um, I mean, yeah, I guess you could do like a really, really brief financial background of what it was like for me growing up, my parents were in ministry, like most of my childhood, um, until I was 16. And so, um, and you know, they were like young and visionary and like very much were, I guess, For them, it was very morally motivated. Um, they wanted. Kind of buck the American dream and, you know, get rid of a kind of tradition and just kind of like live by the seat of their pants, which does sound really exciting and romantic when you're 25. And then I think they became 40 something year olds with teenagers who needed to go to college. And they were like, oh wow. We haven't really prepared for this. As much as we maybe. Like to have prepared. So I, um, I mean, and my parents, I will just say from the outset I have while we have definitely, we definitely had very, very, uh, I guess I'll just say poor seasons and our family growing up. Um, I never felt like my parents, I didn't feel insecure. Um, and so I'm, I am grateful for that experience, but yeah, we grew up in ministry, so it was very much about budgeting. And like, I remember, you know, we, when we moved back from overseas, my parents had sold like all of their possessions before he left, there was nothing in storage. They sold their home, like, so we landed in the states when I was 16 with a literally. Two suitcases per person. And that was it. And, you know, I think my mom had had my grandma's store, some of our sentimental items, like pictures and stuff, but like in terms of belongings, we had nothing. So I remember that whole summer before I went to school, you know, we had to get everything from scratch, like silverware, broom sheets. So we would like every Saturday scour. You know, the, the newspaper for what, um, for what garage sales were happening. And, you know, we would like show up early when the stuff was an over-packed and we did a lot of Goodwill. And when I was in high school and a lot of charity shops, a lot of hand me downs. And so, yeah, I think my. Uh, coming into adulthood and then I'll wrap it up here, but coming into adulthood, I think I kind of, because we never had money. I mean, we had enough to live off of, but we never had extras. You know, we never had, we never went on vacations. We never, you know, had the big Christmas presents, like I think, um, Like I had to have a, I got a job in high school instead of doing, you know, team sports so that I would have spending money after school. So like, there's just that kind of sense of like, if you want to do things that are pleasurable or enjoyable with money, like you have to do extra to earn that on top of just your bare minimum living. And so I think coming into adulthood, I think I've felt very much like. Anytime I enjoyed my money. I felt a lot of guilt around that. Like, oh, we're going to a nice dinner. Uh, you know, or we're going on a vacation, like feeling kind of like I had to navigate my emotions around how I was spending my money and we can talk more about that later, but I think my adulthood has been kind of demystifying some of those, I don't know ideas about what money looks like and how you spend it and how you make it and how you use it. And. Yeah, I don't know. Does that make it make sense? Oh Mel: yeah. Oh yeah. That makes sense. It's so, so similar to the story, Sam kind of, you know, family setting, you know, parents in social work. And ministry. In fact, there's a story that's like kinda when my dad, so my parents were ministers like traditional kind of ministers in the salvation army before I was born. And then just before I was born, they, um, they give that up on my dad went back to, to school to train, to be a social worker while my mom was pregnant with me. And, um, so that was a big day. That was a big kind of financial. Burden right. To kind of be in your early thirties and, uh, taken on a whole new career, um, and leaving the security, I guess, in some way of ministry. But in those early days, when my parents had just got married and had my brother and my dad was a full-time minister, they got into some credit card debt. So it was kind of early days of credit cards and they go into some credit card debt. And my dad had to take on. Job while he was a minister. Um, and like, uh, I think it might get the details of this wrong, but the premise is that it was like at, uh, like, uh, unloading unloading vans for like transportation or something. He just, he just did that to earn extra money, to pay off this credit card. Um, but then one night. Doing this on the load that he was unloading wasn't secured and it fell on his, uh, fell on his face and knocked out his tooth. And then he got compensation for this, like losing this tooth that paid off the credit card, so he didn't have to work. So that's kind of a funny story, but at the same time, I remember like, I remember very acutely that story being the big kind of lesson of. My parents' financial story, that they were very, um, That they were never going to get into that situation again. And they didn't, you know, like they were very disciplined with money. Um, and I, you know, like similarly to you, you know, when we've moved to Canada, then like eight years, 10 years later, Literally, I remember being in our house in the last kind of few days before we, we moved or before we left the house and everything was like price tagged and people were just coming to our house and buy and stuff, buy an older stuff and we left with nothing and we, you know, and so there's this series, which I'm sure you can relate to of our families start Nicky and starting again, starting again, selling, starting again. Um, that when I think about my. Financial legacy in some ways like they like compared to some of my friends, I guess, um, and similar age bracket or their parents being in a similar age bracket and, you know, they had these kinds of maybe long-term careers, where they were able to build up. Um, property or, uh, financial savings and stuff like that, which my parents kind of, they before went that in order to provide this experience for our family to live somewhere else and do something else. Um, and that has, that has big repercussions, but, but I never felt like we. I never felt like we, we were per, but I definitely never felt like we were in the same bracket as some of, some of the other families of friends that I had. Um, and I can distinctly remember kind of when I was maybe 12 or 13, um, everyone at school, uh, here in Northern Ireland, like if we're going to like a disco or there was something like social happening, they would all have like, You know, red tab Levi's and I remember getting my first pair of Levi's, but I w we could never afford the red tops cause they were the most expensive. So it was always like a dark blue pair of jeans with a white tub, you know? Yeah. So it was never quite the, it was never quite the thing that you really wanted it to be, but it was, it was maybe like their best version that they could afford for us. Um, And so the day yep. And Dave, Dave often talks about like, cause his mom was, um, she was a single parent for a good bit of time. Um, and you know, like had to make ends meet. And she, like, if Dave wanted like Nike's, he would get Nicks, you know, like the off-brand off runs trainers, you know, And you know, those, but those, those are things that we remember and I'm interested in why those things are memorable for us because you know, they, I guess they paint a picture of our, of our childhood and by proxy, then our understanding of money. Yeah.

Gabby: Well, I mean, it's kind of that first, that first experience of going into a social situation where. You maybe don't have the same financial backing as your friends. Like that is a really big moment. And I think we kind of continue to feel those moments even into our adulthood where you're like, you know, you go out with those friends where it's like, oh, how are we affording this dinner? Or, you know, you, you have those moments into adulthood. Um, but. There. I don't know. Maybe they're less traumatic because you've compared to that first time, those first few times. But yeah, I don't, that's a really tricky one or not a tricky one, but an interesting one.

Mel: Yeah. Weirdly by parents never really had any extra money until.

They started working for a more wealthy church. Gabby: Yeah. Yeah.

Mel: Then they were like, okay, we have a little bit extra money here. And you know, that felt, that felt like a really different transition, but that didn't come until my dad was like in his fifties.

Gabby: Yeah. I mean, we could probably do a whole episode on ministry and Monday.

Because I have opinions about that, but I might just, you know, hold off on them for now because I feel like that's too big of a topic

Mel: to cover. Yeah. Yeah. It is a big topic, but then, you know, I left home. I left home at 17, but I had always had a job just like he always had a job from, I was. 11 or 12, like I was doing, doing a paper rind. I was, you know, working in a cafe or I was working at a Tim Horton's or I was working at a summer job, or I worked as a camp counselor in the summer, like, well, you know, all three high school I always had, I always had a job. There was always, that was always important to my family. You know? That we had our own sense of autonomy with money. Um, but then when you leave home, it's a whole different thing. And I do remember go into university in Belfast for the first time when I was 17 being like, like I, I was at university, but I also worked at, uh, like a petrol station, um, and being like, Ooh, I. I really don't have money. And I am really far from home and it's not, it's not easy for parents to send money internationally. And you know, like my brother was there, but he was also like working and trying to make ends meet himself. And I do remember those days being really feeling quite hard on. Even then still, like, I then went on to do a gap year, which is, you know, like a big financial, like you don't earn money. You're basically getting for free for a year and then go into university in London and the salvation army. But Kim, like, cause I did my, my training and my, they kind of took care of me while I did my university and worked. I worked for them in a placement. Um, and they kind of paid for my. My university training, which is a Mason, but it still meant that I was like, I had like a stipend really? Yeah. Each, each year. And it's, I mean, I lift it up in London in terms of like how the best time, but it was not a, a free flowing financial, no excursion. It was a, Ooh, do I, can I afford this pint? Well, probably not, but they were all just getting some noodles. So, yeah, there's Gabby: so many things, right. I remember being like weighing up, like, should I get a basket of fries? I'm not sure, but I'm glad Mel: I do. You know what? It's really hard. That mindset is really, um, It's really kind of difficult to shift that whenever you do have more money, um, and you know, you're not necessarily having to think about things as intimately. And even with Dave and I got married, like I remember like we were both youth workers. We were both on very basic wages, like kind of lowest rung. Earning, um, when we first got married and definitely recognizing a big difference between us and our friends, in terms of like the things that we could commit to doing with friends, you know, we would. You know, we would always try and be like, well, yeah, I mean, we could do that, but did you guys just want to come over to our house and we'll get a takeaway instead? Or, you know, like there were things that we just couldn't do at that time, because we just didn't like our money from both. Our salaries was just, it was allocated. Gabby: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's true. I know. I mean, that's just, it like. You you what you graduate. And like, for me, like I had, I had so many, so much student debt that felt like, you know, a mountain to pay off and, you know, thankfully I did get there. I don't even know how, I don't know. It still feels like a miracle to utter those words. But, um, I do have like vivid memories of graduating college. And I am being between jobs. I had been, I, I moved down to Atlanta before Chris and I got married. Cause that's where he was based. And I just was like, we need to be closer while we're engaged geographically. And I worked like two, three jobs. Actually. I worked pretty much nonstop. So I had to, I had a job doing like a writing low-level writing gig. And then I had, I worked at Madwell retail and then I babysat at work and cleaned houses in all the gaps. And I still was just barely paying my bills and I had nothing. And I remember there was one time I excellently. It was when it was a total accident, which is, I still am bitter about, but I accidentally went through a red tr or a good red arrow for a right turn. Um, cause I was like lost and I was looking around and I got pulled over immediately and given $170 ticket and. Felt like the end of my world. Like I was so stressed. I was like, I don't have $170. I. You know, and I was like, and so I, they were like, you can pay this now or you can go to court and you can contest it. And I was like, well, I'm going to contest it because I have to. Um, and then I got there and they were like, yeah, basically, if you're here to contest your ticket, then I'm just going to tell you right now, unless you fell fall under these specific things, like you're, you're still gonna have to pay for it. And so I paid for it and. Um, like basically didn't sleep for three days. Cause I was like, I don't know how I'm going to make that money up. And I, and this is where, this is the point of this story actually, because I think it transitions into. Our money history. I called my mom or my mom called and she was like, how's life what's going on, whatever we were catching up. And I was like, to be honest, I just haven't been sleeping because I just to pay this ticket and I have no money and I have to, I have to move out of this place and all this stuff. And she was like, I'm going to give you the $170 and which I know. Well, it's not like nothing to her, but it wasn't, it didn't mean the same to, you know, to her as it did for me. Um, and I just, I mean, I was obviously super grateful and whatever I was, whatever, but that's kind of, I think the thing that is unspoken about money is like I had a parent who I could fall back on, even for that relatively small amount. You know, um, and, and, and it covered me, you know, and not everyone has that. And I actually, even before we planned this episode or plan to talk about this, I was thinking about it because, or about generational wealth, because Chris and I are kind of trying to think of ways to, we're kind of trying to be more serious about retirement funds and setting up Danny and all this stuff, planning for the future. Basically. And I was thinking about this because I was thinking I can really trace back. You know, my grandpa was an immigrant, um, to the states from Mexico and became a factory worker, married my grandma, who, you know, they were basically estranged from her family, um, for several reasons, but mostly. How to deal with racism, all this stuff. Um, and he worked really hard in the factories or the night shift to like pay their bills and to get my dad and his brothers to the point where they could work a white collar job instead of a blue collar job. And my dad worked really, really, really hard so that I could be in a, like a white, corporate, white collar, corporate America. So that we could dream of something else that wasn't being enslaved to corporate America. And, you know, we'll see where Danny ends up, but like that. That generational, like every generation does incrementally better for the next generation, I think is such a common story. Mel: Yeah. I mean, hopefully, I mean, that Gabby: feels, I hope that's the common story. Yes. I should say. Mel: Yeah. It's H yeah. And I never want to have a conversation about money and, um, where we're at now. I, without recognizing the fact that, and this is definitely something I wanted to say on this as well. Cause I think it's, it's so lacking in our. Social media highlight rate in the world that we were not honest about the things that we have and how we got them. You know, like, even like you're talking about your grandfather. So my dad's father was, um, he was like a business man, but he fell into the wrong company and he actually embezzled money. So there's some, and he ended up having two. Like leave Northern Ireland to go to the south where he couldn't be held accountable for that. This, I mean, this is a potted history, but, um, which left my grandmother with six children as a single parent. Wow. Um, and my dad was the eldest of that, you know, so he kind of. You know, I can, I can imagine that I haven't talked to him about it, the responsibility around finances that he then felt growing up prematurely, probably. Um, and you know, I think about that sometimes and high, and it would be easy to feel really guilty that I don't know that like my grandmother had, she provided such an incredible. Life for her children as a single parent and a very tiny house with six children, um, all very close together, uh, physically and, and, you know, like stepping stone ages. Um, and then my dad and he, you know, he's, he's kind of created this different story and here we are creating a specific story of how, how we, how we live and how. Kind of manage money and all of that kind of stuff, but like the, the honest truth is that if it wasn't like I would not be able to do the work that I do. I wouldn't be able to, um, have this house if it wasn't for the support of help financially and like physically of our family, like I have, like, we were only able to buy this. That was never ever on our radar, that we would be able to afford to buy a heist on the salary that Dave and I were on because we could never save enough to have a deposit. Yep. And then we were able, like, we were given money from DF side of the family when a grandparent died and you know, that. Like miraculous for us. It was, it was unbelievable to, you know, and so we have, so that gave us a huge headstart to be able to buy a high seat and get on the property ladder. And I know that that's just not possible for so many people. And it also helps that we live in Northern Ireland where houses are like, Five Pines, basically. They're very cheap compared to, oh my gosh. Well, my friends, my friends in England sometimes messaged me with like property pal, uh, you know, listings and they're just like, what the hell?

Gabby: Y why the ocean

Mel: six bedroom detached six Pines, just say just FYI. You know, if you want to get bang for your book, you got to come live in Northern Ireland and that's where you can start your property portfolio. It absolutely wouldn't have happened. And we haven't had to pay for childcare, you know, like that's a huge expense, a huge expense. Like I know people whose entire salary goes to childcare for their two kids after school or whatever. Um, and we haven't had to do that. And I think it's so important that we, that we tell the trace that those are huge. Um, those are huge stepping stones to yeah. Of privilege entirely. Yes.

Gabby: And that was my entire point in bringing up that story is like to recognize everyone who literally worked lifetimes of really hard work to so that I could be at the place that I am today, you know, um, and, and really acknowledged that because, you know, we, I think a lot of times. Especially on social media, then this is probably one of the more toxic parts of it. In my opinion is we kind of just think people show up in these mansions on their own, and that doesn't negate that people work hard or make great decisions with what they've been given and, you know, you know, put in the, put in the work, but you're putting in the work higher up the ladder than some. Then other people, and it doesn't mean that people who are lowered out lower down the ladder, financially speaking, aren't working hard, aren't making good decisions. Aren't, you know, and I think that, that's why I think this conversation feels really important to have for me. And also a little bit intimidating, because I think sometimes we moralized, like, you know, you look at people who are. Experiencing something financially above us and think, well, they just have done so much more or they have, you know, I, I mean, Chris and I are both in. For content creation, I guess, for lack of a better word, he's in music, I'm in writing and even on a personal level, like sometimes when you see people succeeding financially in your same industry, you can even bring it down to, well, they're just better at their craft than I am, you know? And you're like get super personal, make it super personal, make it super. I don't know. And it's like, no, that isn't always the case.

Mel: That's yeah. There's often a story of help back up loans, handouts, or sometimes real like scary

Gabby: debts. Yes. Yes, exactly. And we, that's the thing, I think, as I've gotten older, I think we would still be shocked how many people are living with a lot of debt. And I mean, like, I. Yeah. And then that's again, not putting anyone down for that. It's more just like, these are things we don't talk about. And so you don't really, we don't have the full picture of how people have arrived to where they're at. And, um, yeah, I don't know where I was going with it. I don't know how to tie that up with a bow. Can you help me? I don't know that

Mel: there is. I don't know if there is, I just think it's really, it's a really complex thing, but it's important that we really honest to bite. Uh, you know, well, just so we can only be really personal about the honesty that we need to bring to those conversations that, you know, we wouldn't, we wouldn't have the, the things that we have, or this is the security or the career or whatever, without the, the backup and the security. Of our families, really, even though those family stories have been pretty complicated and patchy at times. Um, and I think that's, I also, I also think it's important to say that that, that it has really shipped high. I spent money. So even though I ha I have it now, I like it. I feel like we're in an, a Mo a more secure financial place than we've ever been. And that's largely down to a lot of the things we just talked about and not just, you know, working hard or, you know, luck or whatever. But, um, I feel like I, there with that, then I feel a responsibility with the money that I have. So like, even, even like how I spend money on my business, you know, I always always try to spend like, With other, like hiring other women, but you know, like working with other women, paying other women to support the work that I do, blah, blah, blah, blah. Um, but also just like making really, which is why I have so much fricking decision paralysis around big things. Like you have. You've been privy to that. Like we went to buy a bed this year. Like we haven't bought a bed since, I don't know, in like 12 years. And. It's fallen apart. It is like it cracked last night. I was laying in it and it cracked. And I was like, come on. So I have, you know, I, I spent so much time researching and pouring over these stupid beds to get just the right one because I want to have it for a long time. Um, and I, I, you know, maybe even to the point of ridiculous, I, I do pour over my. Decisions to buy things like, um, I'm not a super impulsive spender. Um, and I maybe that's baked into me because it just wasn't something that we, I was able to do for so long.

Gabby: See, I feel like I have the opposite where like,

Mel: Oh, I was interested to see if that was the case actually, that you're going to say that

Gabby: because yeah, like I think I grew up with so much like, oh, you can't buy that. You can't buy that. You can't buy that. You can't have that. So now that I have money, I'm like, I'm going to spend it how I want to. And I think I get that. Yeah. I think, you know, I mean, and that, I would say not to the point of like recklessness, I don't have anything. I feel, I don't feel ashamed about how I've spent my money, but I do think I tend to be a bit more spendy. Um, and, uh, I hate to use the word shame, but you know what I'm saying? Like, I don't, I don't have anything that where I'm like, oh, I spent beyond my means in a way that was irresponsible or whatever. Um, but I do think sometimes I really need to. Have a chat with myself and I, and it's really hard because I think I kind of do have a little bit of that scarcity mentality, um, where I'm like, well, I don't know. This is going to go away. And so kind of, I have to do work to kind of undo that, but both of our Mel: responses are, have a tinge of the scarcity, right? Yeah. So it's, it's not just the, I'm going to spend it because you know, it might not be here forever, so I'm gonna enjoy it while I can. Whereas. As maybe a little bit more like, you know, I've got to be careful with this money because it's, you know, it's here, but is it going to go away? So I don't want to spend it with like, being really thoughtful of bite us and neither of those are wrong. I don't think that they're just a really natural response to how we, how we've been raised, what money has felt like. Um, And, you know, our CFO, our feelings of safety and security around Monday will absolutely have an impact. So, yeah, I don't know. I'm interested in, in though, like if there's been situations in more recent years, where, where the, you feel like kind of money has socially impacted you or, or that you felt that has there been like with friendships and stuff? Gabby: Um, so yeah, definitely. So, you know, if, if this is one of your first episodes tuning in, um, just a little bit of background, I live in Nashville. Um, my husband's a musician and so. You get a range of what that looks like in Nashville, obviously like you get, you know, you get literally like Kelly Clarkson and Taylor swift, like literally, and you also get, you know, struggling musician playing at bars, living. Paycheck to paycheck and live in the dream, you know? So you do get a wide range of that. But I think where we're kind of at, in terms of like how much we tour and how many albums we have and all of that stuff. I think sometimes people have an expectation that Chris and I maybe like, would have. Maybe have more like, in terms of like for sure. Sure.

Mel: I'm sure people listening are like Ren collective is a super famous Christian Bond.

They are all buying to be billionaires.

Gabby: Yes. Yeah. I can definitively say we're not millionaires, but I mean, but I also don't want to minimize what we do have. I just think like for Chris and I, and obviously like everyone in the band. It makes their own decisions with what they earn. But for Chris and I, and I've talked about this actually recently on our social media, my social media account, because someone had asked, you know, like, how did you save for two homes? Because we just recently, right before the pandemic, we bought a tiny little house next to Chris, his mom in Northern Ireland, um, for when we're there. And someone had asked about how we saved for that. And I think like I've definitely watched when people have come to visit our home in the states here. Um, and been like, oh, like not in a negative way, but kind of being surprised that we live in a smaller home. Um, it's not very flashy. Like I love our home, but like it's, it's modest in my opinion, like relatively compared to how other musicians in our industry are living. Um, and. That is something that has been like a little bit of a conscious decision for Chris and I, where, you know, both, both of us grew up in households that were like impacted by the recession. And like, I know for me, My parents, you know, bought this home and we bought a house in the states. Um, when I came back from being overseas, that was like pretty much out of their, their budget, but they wanted to be in a good neighborhood for us to go to school, good schools. Um, and then the, the market crash happened and they were really screwed over by that. And. I watched that happen to them. And so, and, and like, Chris has like his own experiences with money. That just meant that when we were buying our home, we want it for us. It was really important. And this does kind of come back to scarcity mentality, I suppose. But like, we wanted to buy a home where like, If all of ran collective success went away overnight, we would still be able to make, like, pay our mortgage comfortably and in a way where, like we could, we could cobble together jobs and make it happen. Um, and that was a really big. Important thing for us. Um, and so I'm not trying to shade our home in any way. I actually really love it. I love small houses, uh, in general, um, as a preference, a personal preference, I love, uh, a smaller home. Um, but that is one thing where to go back to your question of like, have you had any recent experiences? I think I often have the experience of like inviting people into my home and then. Feeling like, it's not what they would have maybe expected it to be. And that's it. That's an interesting one. Like, cause I'm like, yeah, that was a district that was like, that was a decision. And um, yeah. I don't know if that makes sense. Hm.

Mel: It does make sense. Cause I think, and I think especially with the bond being. Uh, Christian Bond. There's some sort of, and just like the kind of commercialization of that, that music sane and, and all, you know, and all of the trappings that come with that and what we see, it's really easy to make assumptions that's that everyone follows suit and in that world, right.

And then they have the big, the big houses and the. Staff and the cars and the jets and all that shit. Um, and I think that's, you know, it's pretty, um, pretty awesome that you guys are choosing to do things differently and not stretch yourselves. In a way that feels, yeah,

Gabby: well, I will say, yeah, and I mean, for us, it's all about how we want to feel in our own living our own lives. And so it's, it's not about like saying one way is right to do it, and one way is wrong to do it. It's about how you want to move through your life and feel how you want to feel moving through it. And I will say when the pandemic hit in 2020, and we were looking, we were literally facing, oh, we don't know how we're going to be able to pay our bills through our main stream of revenue, which is touring. It felt really good to know that like I could probably go to Starbucks and work a few odd jobs and same with Chris and pay our mortgage and we wouldn't have to be displaced. And that felt really, really good. Um, And it kind of crystallized for us like, oh, this is why, this is why we picked this, you know? And, and this is, you know, it was like, those are the moments where, I mean, and that's not a decision that everyone's going to make, you know, you can eat, you get to choose how you want to do that. But for us, that was what was important at the time. And then we didn't expect to feel comfortable within that. So soon.

Mel: Well, I think, I think that there's just, there's this kind of, um, this idea that you. You will always rise to meet the level of your income with your outgoings, right? Like you say that you see that that does happen. You know, like you're, you know, you you've reached a different, another like threshold of financial security or growth or whatever, and then you're kind of, you start buying more expensive things and you kind of maybe buy a bigger house or more, you know, a bigger car or whatever. Um, and actually. And that means that you never really ever feel like you're stopping to enjoy things because it's the pursuit of more as you, as that increases and then you have to maintain more. So you have to keep up with that treadmill. Um, it's called the head Dominic treadmill, actually, there's a name for it. Um, And this is kind of like metaphor for our tendency to pursue one pleasure after another and kind of so that you can yeah. So that the surge of happiness has felt as you, as you can, more and your baseline becomes different at different, like as you, as you kind of increase in levels of, you know, having more, right. Yeah. But that's also not necessarily healthy. And, and I think that it's, yeah, I mean, it creates a Siham level of, of pressure at each level. Right. He got to maintain this thing. You never really get to enjoy the space you're in because, or be grateful for it enough, because you're always thinking of, okay, now that we've, we've kind of got more, we got to keep up. We've got to keep. These payments and this staff and these things and these, you know, maintaining all the things. So, um, yeah, I find that really fascinating. And then you see it, you see it played out, you know?

Gabby: Yeah. Yeah. I think a lot of times, you know, we're, I suppose in some ways this is true, but like, I know, especially in the states, I don't know what it's like in Northern Ireland. You were as wealthy as you're allowed, like whatever your, your borrowing capacity is like however much the bank will lend you is how rich you are.

Mel: And that's, that's crazy.

Gabby: Yeah. And I think a lot of times. Yeah. I think a lot of times it's just being like, okay, just because I w I'm allowed to borrow this much, doesn't mean I have to do that. Um, sometimes like I have been in a position where, you know, my parents, they were like, well, to live the bare minimum life, we have to borrow everything like our full capacity pretty much. And I saw there's no shame in that really. Um, that's not my point in bringing that up, but I do think sometimes we can, like, I know Chris and I have had conversations with. Would having more actually make us happy or are we happy right now? Yeah. You know, A lot of the times when we actually stopped to think about it, we're like, no, we're happy right now. Like, we don't want more, like we're, we're living a life that feels fulfilling and you know, we could just go from there, but yeah.

Mel: Yeah. And I know that the answer to that question will, will be different for N for all kinds of other people. And there might be people listening who are thinking, actually, I don't want to, I don't want to have the paycheck to paycheck thing. I do. I would like more to feel more comfortable and secure. And, um, you know, it feels like such a privilege to be able. Say no, it's okay.

Gabby: It is a privilege and that is like, I I'm fully aware of that and yeah, and I, but I just think it's like, people you're allowed to make the decisions with what you have and, you know, That should be allowed. So what about you anything recently where you're like socially navigating finances with your peers and family? No.

Mel: No, not necessarily like navigate. Money or that kind of thing. But I think it, you know, like when we got our caravan this year, it kind of brought up a bunch of stuff for just in terms of like, um, you know, it was a big light go and we, you know, we got a loan to be able to pay that when you, we could, we could repay that loan comfortably, comfortably. So it felt like, uh, a decent level of. Risk versus reward. Um, but with that comes the kind of, I don't know that just the. Interested people who are not necessarily our, for our family or close friends. Cause they, they kind of know how that goes. They know where we're at, but just people who are like, oh, it's, you know, oh, she's got a Cara and that's, you know, we know, um, that'd be, go ahead. Search and how much those things cost and making assumptions on things or asking questions at DMS. It's kind of interesting sometimes. Um, and I also have witnessed like there's other big influencers in Northern Ireland who have recently bought caravans. It's it's been a bit of a, a season for caravans and, and then in Northern Ireland, because nobody's going on holiday. So people are wanting to stay and enjoy the amazing place that we live in here. But, um, I've seen in their comments like, or like, Just things that people are saying socially, a bite. Yeah. Having stuff like that or having a second home like it.

Gabby: Yeah. Yeah. Addressed. I was going to ask you, like, I think, you know, different cultures. Talk about these things differently. And I even in the state, so like I grew up in Minnesota, it's like very like Minnesotans are, you know, prepped for cold weather. They love a bargain. Like if you, if you. Compliment anyone on anything, they'll be like, oh yeah. I, you know, I got a great bargain on this. The sweater here.

Mel: Yeah. Have you seen that? Have you seen that name? That's like, oh, this, oh, no. I mean, I got this 10 years ago. It was like $5 actually. I

Gabby: hit it. Yes.

Mel: I'm mad at you for liking don't

Gabby: compliment me. Like that is not necessarily like to a T if you compliment Northern Irish people also. Yeah. Like, you know, and that isn't to say that there aren't wealthy people here, but like, even within that, there's a culture of like, not like no extravagance, you know, you, you pay, you pay for practical things. Like, you know, all of that, like that kind of, uh, that kind of a culture. Um, and then I moved to the south. And so when I moved to Atlanta, And I don't know if this is everywhere, but like, there's just like, there was an opulence, like, it was like, even my peers who were like, you know, in their early twenties, starting out in their careers, like they had these big, beautiful homes and they got their hair done here and it was just like this, like, uh, It was just such a culture shift because like my friends back in Wisconsin and Minnesota, like we were all just like, you know, like that culture of like, you talk about your bargains, you don't, you live at the, everything you spend on for pleasure, whether it's eating out or a shirt that you don't need or whatever, like you. You try to minimize you try to, um, you really justify or rationalize versus like, when I moved to Atlanta, it was like, opulent really is the best word I can think of. Whereas like a big city. And it was like, everyone was trying for me as someone who didn't have any money at the time when I moved there, it felt like everyone was just trying to spend as much as they could as publicly as they could without any, um, Like emotional hangups about it. Um, and so that culture shift was a weird one to go through and feeling like feeling. Where, like I would have felt really proud of my bargains in Minnesota. I felt like ashamed of my bargains and in Atlanta. And I don't know if anyone else has had that experience in Atlanta or if that was just my own insecurity speaking, but I, I would be interested in what that's like, what the culture around that is like in Northern Ireland. Oh, you know, I mean, I know that I don't live there. You know, I am sure

Mel: that you and Chris have connected on a Minnesota Northern Ireland bargain level. Like, you know, that that is absolutely the culture here. Do you know what? Maybe I don't want to get into this too much, but it does have a big part to play is the kind of. For for me anyway. Yeah. Growing up in the salvation army as my spiritual home, um, was very much, uh, you know, life of poverty because we want to identify with the per, because this is some kind of man ethos and message of this denomination. Um, so it was charity. Um, you know, that has had a big, big impact in my understanding and view and worldview around money. And you know, the idea that, you know, money. There's evil and money and, you know, it can be absolutely exploitative and, you know, all, all that kind of stuff has taken a long time for me to unpack that and, um, to rephrase them the kind of, some of the toxic messages and really avoid that, that really keeps people from feeling, um, Free and autonomous. So you, uh, do what they need to do in the world in relation to money and all of that kind of stuff. So that's definitely another layer that I've experienced is the kind of faith and upbringing within that particular denomination, I guess for me, is all I can speak to, but was really interested in. And so, and also, you know, like I would say. What's also kind of a weird dichotomy is that my mum, my mum absolutely loved a bargain, like, but my mom also would buy a bunch of bargains and like would have far too much stuff. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? So she would be going to panties in the, you know, in the states because we live close to the border and on a shopping trip and buy in the. $5 blazes and enter a wardrobes or just Brahms of scarves and blouses and bargains and Dales. She called them. Dale loved a data, love a deal who really doesn't love a dealer. I still love a table. I still do. You know, I still do significant price checking. Oh yeah. All kinds of stuff. Anyway, we're just so shaped aren't way and all these big and small ways. You know, our family of origin and their story, and, yeah, it's a big one. It'd be really interesting to hear from you guys on this. If you're willing to share with us your, your own reflections on what money has been like for you, we're not, um, we're not assuming that it's ever been easy for anyone. We hope that some of the things that we've shared today, I don't know. There only are stories that's only are honest stories of by where we're up and where we've been.

Gabby: Yeah. And I mean, not that there needs to be like a takeaway or anything, but I, I do think that understand, like when it comes back to friendship, I would say understanding your friends, financial history. Like, if, if you feel like you have that kind of relationship where you can like talk about, like, this is how I was raised, and this is how that's impacted me, and this is why I make these decisions. That could be a potentially good conversation. If you feel like you have that level of, you know, connection and trust and whatever with your friends. I mean, I don't think you have to talk about it, but I know that like it is it's helps me understand some of my closest friends, but yeah. And help honor their current process, knowing where they've come from.

And I don't know that that's, I think when it comes to friendship, these things play a role, you know, they just do. And it's part of the picture of who someone you love is. And, um, Nothing to be ashamed of.

Mel: No, no, not at all. Thanks for Sharon. I appreciate that. And I have not really talked about that too much actually on the side. So that was nice to have a fresh, fresh kinda listen to where you're, where you've come from. Yeah. And all of that stuff. So, yeah. Thanks. And thanks everybody. Thanks for listening as always. We'll catch you next.