Episode 39: Holding Space for Ourselves & Our Friends, with Psychotherapist Michelle Leeder

Damn! You guys are in for a treat with this episode! This week we welcome our FIRST EVER guest to the podcast: our dear friend and psychotherapist Michelle Leeder! Michelle sits down with us to chat about how we can hold space well for each other as friends when times are tough and how to navigate setting boundaries in friendships. 

You can find out more about Michelle here: https://michelle-leeder.com/

>>> Click here to read the computer generated transcript (note that the transcript isn't perfect)

Mel: Welcome back to the making and effort podcast, the podcast where you get to drop in on a conversation with two friends, discussing all the things they make an effort with on some of the things they don't tie Gabby. Hello, Gabby: Michelle. Mel: I was going to get there. I was going to do like a dramatic pretend waiver. It was just menu. And then be like, guys, we've got someone else here today. But everyone's just surprised. Talk that up for me. He's going to do that, but you just go backside. It doesn't yet. Michelle: Um, but that would have felt like a lot of pressure as well, I think, to like have this big lead up. Oh, Mel: because I'm going to do that anyway, though. Michelle: thank you for that. Mel: So get ready. Okay. So this week, um, we are continuing because, because a couple of weeks ago we asked for some of your friendship dilemmas, things that you were finding Trekkie and friendship. And we, there were so many that cam three, we wanted to kind of separate them out into different aspects and stuff like that. We are continuing on in that vein, but this week, um, we wanted to bring somebody else in to help us talk through a particular aspect of trickiness that has come up for you guys. Definitely come up for Gabby and I, um, and friendship around being a good listener upright. Um, no one went to kind of confront and talk about. Difficult things within your friendship, how to disagree, well, how to give advice or receive, um, advice. And no one went to just listen and all of that. And we thought who better to bring in than someone who gets paid to listen. Right. Um, and who better than to bring in someone that we both respect, admire love and, um, appreciate our dear friend Michelle later. So for those of you who maybe don't know Michelle, uh, Michelle is a qualified psychotherapist, a well-being practitioner. She lives there, the pig district in, uh, near Sheffield and a place called Chester failed with her young family. And she works. With teenagers and adults that identify as female with a, to help them with their wellbeing, their mental health, et cetera. Am I doing okay with us in true. Michelle: You're doing so well. I love how you've really pinpointed, where I live. do you need my actual address? We get a postcode. Mel: I also, I'm super excited that we have a trio of accents. We really Michelle: were getting Mel: something for everyone. Michelle: Yeah. Mel: But no, we want to welcome Michelle, our first ever Shelley, you are a first ever podcast guests. I'm making an effort almost. Michelle: How does it fail? Yeah, I know this because I'm an OGE I've been here right from the start every episode. I just want to make that really clear so that I get like, you know, the price for that. I was feeling a little star struck. It's like, finally I get to. Meet with you too. I'm here. And I don't know whether I'm coming. I'll go. And it's so it's so much, I'm excited, terrified. And when your autographs, Mel: okay. That's enough of that. And here's why, because we have a Marco polo shot that we took in literally Gabby: every single Michelle: it's not the same. Mel: Well, it is because our podcast was born out of Marco polo, PS. Markopolos why are you not sponsoring or podcast Gabby: yet? I know you guys need to go harass them. Yeah. We just keep tagging, tagging us. Mel: Anyway. Anyway, welcome shell shell has been my best day for, I don't know, two decades. We've known Michelle: each other. I know. Um, the long Mel: time I could not keep her to myself. So I introduced her to Gabby in the last year. Um, which was risky. Actually. I'm going to say that was a risky thing to do because you guys could have just run off without me and just investments without me, but there's still a chance. Okay. Thanks. Um, and I think that Gabby has been able to witness the, the skills that you have in friendship, and also knowing that that is going to transfer into your work with people in their, and their journey to health and mental health. Um, and so we thought we, we absolutely needed to have you on our podcast to talk about listening and, you know, Yeah, I did hide a, be a good listener and high to have difficult conversations and give and receive advice within the context of friendship, because you're both really, really good at that. And your job I'm really, really good at not at that as a friend. So that's why Michelle: you're here. You know, that this is the thing that terrifies me because I, um, yes, I do do this as a job and, uh, yeah, I love what I do, but this, this feels like an entirely different, um, maybe not entirely different, but being a good listener in a friendship feels like something. I, I feel a bit less qualified for. Um, so yeah, I mean, I think it's, I find it a real struggle actually. That's probably the first thing to say is that listening and friendships feels a very, very different to doing what I do in my job. Maybe we'll get into talk about that a bit later on. I think you guys have mentioned it in previous podcasts, um, as well about how being a listener as a friend is really different to being in therapy. They're two very different things. So I'm going to do my best, you know, I'm going to do my best for you to, uh, that's all we ask. It's going to make an effort for you. Gabby: Well, and I think I was just really this whole, I think we started texting about doing this. I want to say like three or four months ago. And it was because you had mentioned on one of our Marco Polo's that in your training for being a therapist, you did some kind of like, I don't know if it was a course or like a workshop on how to be a good listener. And I remember just being like, that's what I need as like, I feel like sometimes I sit down with a friend in. You know, they'll start sharing something. And because I, there's a kind of a sense, I don't know if you guys feel this way, but I think sometimes in a friendship, I find that there's a sense of like, you feel like you have to deliver something. And so you just kind of like sit down and start like sharing your wisdom. I'm doing air quotes around wisdom. Um, whereas when I look back on the friendships that are meaningful to me, they very rarely, I very rarely think of like really solid advice people have given me. And I mostly think about the space that people have created for me to exist in. And so I think so there's a couple of things I would love to ask you about, but one of the main things I want to kind of learn from you and pick your brain on today is how, like, are there specific practical things or tools that you've kind of learned in your journey? As a therapist that would translate into friendship. And if there's anything like not to do, I don't know, we can get into all of that, but that was kind of why I was like, we need to have Michelle on the podcast because I think a lot of us could kind of benefit from being better listeners. I know I could for sure. Michelle: Um, yeah, I think, um, yeah, so my whole existence in the last little while has been about trying to become a better listener and, and honestly, it's taken me on a very deep, personal journey into myself, which sounds a bit strange, but, um, yeah, you know, actually this, this might lead on to something, to something that we could discuss, but for me, um, going way back when I started my counseling training, um, very, very fast like, um, bits of work, um, We did like a little bit on this thing. And then we went into really deep diving into ourselves. Um, so we didn't even start at the place that this is what it takes to be a good listener. We started at the place of, okay. Who are you? What are you about? What growth areas, um, do you need to invest in, what are your values? What are the things that you are judgmental about? What are your biases? We, we went into all of that, um, because all of that actually underpins how you listen. And I was really surprised by that, that we didn't go straight into, okay, this is how you listen, and this is what you should do. It was all about actually, well, what, what are you about, because what you're about really underpins how you listen to someone else. Um, Mel: so good. Michelle: Yeah. And. So then that has formed the basis of my journey. And since to try and be really ever present with somebody and in the therapy room. And, and again, there's a real distinctive, um, boundary between what I do in my job and, and in friendship, but in the therapy for him, it's a constant, like, um, being present with yourself as well as being present with somebody else. It's a constant, like, um, uh, checking in with both of you constant wondering a constant curiosity about, oh, that landed with me with that. I wonder what that means or, oh, she said that and it led me to think in this. So it's quite a dynamic process in the therapy. Gabby: Wow. I don't know if I could hold, like, I don't know why you're thinking. Well, I'm thinking I'm like, I don't know if I could hold space in my head for what. Checking in with myself while checking in with someone else that sounds so like intense, like very cool, but very intense. Michelle: Um, it's this, this, and I think this is why, um, yeah, making the distinction between listening as a therapist and as a friend is really important because listening is the therapist. You learn a lot, you know, um, some, some people would disagree with me, but for me, like when I'm listening to somebody in the therapy room, there's so much going on, it's like a little Swan, you know, underwater where then, you know, the, the feet are paddling away, but it looks really common. So even on top, there's so much process going on so much happening in that relationship that you need to have the kind of training and the building blocks to be able to manage that and deal with that and process it in the right way is different in friendships. But I think that there are some things that carry over. Mel: You switch it off though, whenever your friends. Cause I don't feel like my experience of you. Is that you are not different to that in friendship. Like in one way, I'm like great. We get to have Michelle and all of her, like listening skills and unpacking her own bias as she talks to me as a friend, like what a great, but at the same time, I'm like, wow, that must be exhausted. And D does that feel like work then in friendships that you're not necessarily, you know, stopping and starting, you're taking off your therapist hat when you're experienced in friendship? Surely there's some part of that. That's really like a natural crossover. Michelle: Yeah. I think that there are skills perhaps or a way of being that, um, that like spans across my relationships, most of my relationships. Um, but certainly, um, I'm learning to, to kind of take off my therapist. When, when I need to, um, so that I don't carry that through all of my life. I don't know that everybody would be the same, but I'm still inherently the same person in all of those spaces. Um, but being in a therapy room with me, which of course you've never experienced, but would feel very, very different to going out for coffee or for me to, you know, pick up the phone to you, they would feel really, really different experiences. Mel: Yeah. Yeah. That's true. We haven't had that overt Michelle in her professional capacity, but I can imagine, you know, that there's that cm, I guess, from what we've experienced of you as, uh, as Michelle, the Franz has, is so important and supportive and nonjudgmental and all of that kind of stuff that. I can imagine that, that, like, if you, if that she, without your therapist, huddle you with your therapist, hat on is going to be, and I'm really interested in that, um, the biases and the like judgmental pace of being a good listener and starting with yourself, um, when it comes to being a good friend and a good listener, because I think that that is, I mean, that is often where all of the clashing in friendship happens is, and we've talked a bit about this on previous, last, previous two episodes around expectations. Right. Um, so I don't have a particular question, but I would like you. Michelle: Yeah, yeah, no, I can pick it up. I can take it from here just to say this is a little sidebar, but when I went for my interview, um, to, um, train, to become a theater, One of the questions was what are your prejudices and what are your biases? And essentially, if you were to say, no, I don't have any, they would challenge you on that course. That doesn't seem possible. So what, you know, what are they, maybe that's the work you have to do to work that out the outs, that's pretty intense, isn't it? But I'm glad you led me to this place, Melanie, because this was the first thing. When you sent me that text about talking about this, the first thing that came up to me was about asking the question. Do, do I want to listen? So if someone was to come to me and not necessarily, it wouldn't necessarily be a conscious thing, but I noticed the friendships that I'm in, where I want to listen and somewhere, I don't know. You know, and that will often be about something that's going on within me. Something that I am really struggling with in that friendship, or maybe with that person or this particular context, or it might be that, you know, I'm just feeling too stressed within myself or too full within myself that I just can't. So it might not even be about the person talking. It might, might be about me, but I think that there's a presumption that if you're a friend with somebody that you're going to be able to listen to them and, and just delve right in there and be that person. And sometimes we can't, and it's always worth asking or being curious about why, why can't I to this, but why is it whenever this person comes and talks to me, I switch off or I find my mind wondering. Well, I found myself getting really angry or frustrated or annoyed at them or sleepy. That's a really interesting one. If someone comes to you often and you find yourself like just nodding. Oh, sleepy. I can't believe you're Mel: saying that. That is so interesting. I've experienced that GABA. Yeah. I can tell by your face. Gabby: I was like, you were just like speaking it out. You're like, you're like, you definitely Mel: deserve this. Like her mind opened like this. Gabby: Yeah. I'm like, is there, well, my followup point, I know you're, you're still sharing. I'm like my follow question is like, is there such a thing as just finding someone boring and there's not like it's not malicious, not malicious, but like, anyway, sorry, Michelle: keep Gabby: talking. I'm sure. I answered questions that Mel: can be answered, but that's so interesting. So all these different responses. Yep. Michelle: Um, and then the therapy space, and I think that this can translate a little over to friendships in the therapy space. If that happened with a client, we would take it to supervision and say, you know what? Every time this client comes in, I find myself falling asleep. By the way I have, I have never done this, but this, this is a real person. Or I find myself getting really frustrated or angry. Um, And at that point, it would be about delving into me about what is happening within may. So not about, you know, it doesn't mean that that person is boring. It means that I am finding them boring. So what is that about me that I need to be looking at and dealing with? What does that tell me about me? Or if someone was to come in and I, um, and again, this hasn't happened, thank goodness in my experience so far, although I, I, you know, I expect it will in my career if someone was to come in and I was to say, get, feel angry each time, what would that tell me about me and about what values are boundaries perhaps, uh, uh, being crossed that I'm making me feel like that. Um, so that's kind of therapies. Processing and I don't, I don't necessarily know. And I guess I'd be interested to hear from me too about whether you think that that's a process we need to go through as friends. But I do think it is interesting that if we notice ourselves feeling something similar with a friend on the regular, um, to ask ourselves the question, okay, well, what is going on within me there? Like, why is my response to that person like that? Or they're crossing a boundary? Um, are they, um, are they someone that makes me feel really happy? You know, they, they could be sharing something really deep and, and hard to hear, but you feel so much love and even a sense of joy because you're in their presence with them. So what does that tell you about your values are, um, Yeah, all of that Gabby: today's episode is sponsored by Anna Louisa. If you all have been listening for a while, then you've Mel: definitely heard us share about our love Gabby: for this brand. Before Anna Louisa is a sustainable jewelry brand I've personally been wearing for almost three years now, and today we're partnering with them to offer you 10% off their pieces. I was first drawn to this brand because they always saved half the exact piece I was looking for. Super affordable prices. What I did a little research, I was so excited to discover that not only is Ana Luisa, a woman owned brand, but it's also a brand dedicated to sustainability. So, like I said before, we're partnering with them Mel: today Gabby: to offer you 10% off your purchase. Um, they release new jewelry collections every Friday and ISA start at just $39. Recently, I ordered some bracelets that I can't wait to wear over the holiday season. So if you're in the market for a few new pieces of jewelry and want to choose a company that is gentle on the earth and your wallet checkout in a Louisa Mel: that is spelled a N a L U I S a and just one more time, a N a Gabby: L U I S a go to Anna louisa.com forward slash making an effort or check out the link in our episode description for 10% off your purchase today. So let's just follow that through for a second. So say you're meeting with a friend regularly and you're finding yourself, I don't know, just like low level annoyed. There's not like a ton of aggressive emotions around it, but you're just sitting down and you're like, oh, I'm meeting with her again for coffee. I find it quite annoying or boring or whatever. So then you start doing the inner work and I don't know, like maybe so like, yeah, let's just talk that through the oxide through like, say I'm, I literally have no one in mind. I just know that I think that's something we all can relate to. And so. Unpacking why those reasons might be. And then what do you do with that information once you have it? Michelle: That Mel: makes sense. Yeah. Good, good question. Teach us. Michelle: I want to know it's really hard Mel: because it requires a real level of self-awareness that's what we're talking about here is to actually notice, instead of just going that person's annoying banket as annoying person that I'm. Yeah. I know my relationship with them has changed and I don't find them as easy to be around or whatever, or I'm finding we're having the same conversations instead of banking as that kind of shut down thing. The act of being more curious about why you feel that way towards that person is requires so much self-awareness and not all of us are. Equipped to do that. So it's almost like we got to go backwards to too. It's not necessarily like when we notice it, it's like, how do we build Michelle: self-awareness I agree. And, and of course, friendships operate at different levels. Of course, sometimes you might meet with someone once every six months and find yourself like getting a bit frustrated, but let's say, and maybe you don't need to do the deep work around that because it's not necessarily a friendship that, um, take takes much from you or it, it, it is what it is like. Um, you know, I guess here, we're talking about friendships on a, perhaps a deeper level that require more of you. Um, so like, yeah, let's have an example of, if you were to, um, have a friendship on the regular with somebody, and every time you came away from having a conversation with them, you just felt yourself getting frustrated. So you get a bit curious about that, and then you realize that, uh, for example, um, the conversations always ends up in a place about them. And so you never have spent space to have any focus on you. And then you can get a bit curious about, okay, well, why is that? You know, why do I get frustrated with that person that I never get a chance to talk about me? And then it might, it might move you down the road of thinking, well, where do I get to talk about me? Um, and then you discover that you have a need and therefore you're able to attend to that need. Actually, my need is that I need a space in my life. I need someone, I need people who, um, who I can bring my stuff to. Um, so it, it might lead you down the road where you discover that you have a need. Um, yeah, Gabby: go on. I was going to say, so you're saying you, you discover that you identify that. And then you're saying, going to find people where that need is more fulfilled, but not going back to that friendship and set and vocalizing that need. Cause I think a lot of people would think like, well, now I need to go and like, and say, Hey, you need to create more space for me because that's kind of what I would, maybe you do. Michelle: Why not though? You know, again, it depends on the friendship and this enters into kind of boundary setting territory and maybe even conflict territory, which I think you guys are gonna talk about. Yes you are Michelle. No, you pay thing out the other day saying, what should we talk about? I'm like, can you talk about conflict? Because I don't know about that. Tell me I am not the person. Um, but yeah, like I think, yeah, Y you know, depending on the friendship and depending on how meaningful that friendship is to you, right. You've make a decision as to what happens next, you know, do you stay in that friendship and go, okay, well, this is what it is. Um, when we meet up, we talk about her. I'm okay with that. Let's carry on. Do you say, actually I need to put a boundary in here and that I, I need my friendships to be more reciprocal. So with that person, it's not, they may be, I need to see them less or not at all. Um, or maybe you bring it up and say, you know what? This is, I feel really squirmy about this, but this is what I've noticed is happening within me. When we meet up, this is what happens. And I feel like I need more space than this friendship to be able to be my things as well. Cause I'm going through some stuff. Um, you know, none of that is easy options, but perhaps important if you notice the same thing coming up again, and again, And this is for any relationship, isn't it? This is like romantic relationships, family relationships, very, very hard stuff. It's hard Mel: stuff, especially because, you know, with, uh, with noticing that you don't have the space and the relationship to be listened to what you're doing by kind of, if you do, if you do choose to go down that kind of third rate of, um, bringing it up with the person and saying like, I'm just noticing this coming up with, man. I love that. You said that by the way, I love that you kind of brought it back to you. That is such a beautiful yeah. Um, helpful way to not, you know, um, ignite something that isn't there. Right? Like you're not going there. Yeah. You never listened to me rather than that. It's um, well I've noticed about myself is that when we. Get together. I, I don't, I don't feel like I have enough Raymond. I'm noticing that that is something that I really need in the friendship. Um, I guess we're incrementally go and dine the road, but by Beth here in this conversation, the three of us, but, um, I'm just, I just know that our listeners, especially who've written in about some of these particular situations and dilemmas in their friendships are probably thinking like I'm thinking, does my friend has capacity to be different in the friendship. And then if I, if I write, if I bring that up with my friends, that I I'm noticing the, I am needing more space to be, to bring my stuff to the friendship, we have no control over their reaction to that. Um, or their further up to that and how they then go on to maybe. Redirect and re re rebalance those things. So it's so vulnerable. It is. Gabby: I think that's a really good point, Mel, because like the reality is you could do that. You could do, you could bring all of this to a friend and say, it's a really, a really great friend you've had for many years. And, you know, you know that their heart towards you, their baseline is they just love you. But even in that conversation, you know, they could say, oh man, first of all, like I, I'm just thinking, I'm like, I could say, you know, I'm sorry that, that you have felt this way. But also right now in my life, I actually don't have space. I don't have capacity. And like that's, and, and like for whatever reason, you know, it could be a work could be family, it could be health, whatever the reasons are like that. It's so real. Cause like that's in a perfect world, you would all have these conversations and everyone be like, oh yes, on Fridays. We'll do to make more space for you and blah, blah, blah, blah. But the reality of life is like our lives are really busy and messy and complicated. And a lot of times we have a lot of we're being pulled in many different directions. And I, I even think for me, like if I heard that my immediate emotion, even if I loved that person and it to be a good friend to them, probably even more so than if I really cared about them, I would feel like, oh, I always feel so in over my head in life anyway. And now in my I'm like letting my friends down too. And that really sucks to hear and that. And not let your moderate them, but you're like mad at yourself, you know? And you're also kind of frustrated that you, like, you're looking at your capacity and your say, looking, and you're saying, I actually don't have more to give this person. And that doesn't mean that I don't love them necessarily. I don't think, but this is my reality. This is the reality that I'm dealing with right now. That's when I feel like these conversations, like really just get so real. I don't know. You know what I'm saying? Cause like, yeah, these are all well-intentioned people. No, one's trying to hurt anyone. No, one's trying to be a Dick, but like, all Mel: you can do though is like, is do is, is if you feel like the, the next step for you is to address it is to do that in the most loving way. And I guess suspend your expectations until you're able to hear from the other person about what they can, what they can reciprocate. So. I don't know, like, this is me guessing, because I don't know that I've fully ever gone through the process that we're talking about here and like in the fullest health with expectation. Um, but I suppose the idea I'm gathering as I'm thinking I lied is that we do that with the knowledge that it might be, that that person cannot meet us there. And that that's, that could be really hard, but that's also possible that it might not be Shelly. What would you say? Michelle: Um, I would say, yeah, yes. To all of that. And I think, you know, you choose your heart, don't you in that situation, is it better to not say anything and to live with it inside and that can really eat you up? Like I can imagine it and it's making me, like, it feels really, you know, Like you imposed on yourself because you go around and say, Mel: and we make up stories that too. Right. I know that that's where that, that happens for me is when I don't address things or actually hear the reality for anybody else, I make up stories about what they're thinking. I make up stories about how they feel about how good or bad they are. Gabby: Right? Michelle: Yeah. Yeah. And so then, you know, at least with being able to say it and like, by no means, am I saying this flippantly, like this is a hard thing to do. And also I'm not saying that I do this. Um, but in an ideal world, you know, to be able to say it and for your friend to go, you know what, I actually, I love you so much. And the reason that I am always taken up space is because I just don't have the capacity for you. It doesn't mean I don't love you. I have so much going on within me that I just don't know that I have any freedom within myself to hear from somebody else. Mel: Um, Michelle: then, you know, and together you can make a plan, right? You can say, okay, you know what? I hate you. That's fine. You know, where do we go from here? And how do we, you know, how do we sort this out? And it might be that it's like, okay, well, you didn't get to make a choice as to whether you kind of say, okay, well, I'm going to stay in this friendship for, you know, knowing that this is temporary. She can't hear for me at the minute, I'll take my stuff elsewhere. Um, but I still want to be in this, you know, because I know she loves me and I enjoy feeling loved by her. Um, or you can say actually for awhile, let's let, should we just have a little vest from each other. Um, and interestingly, I had a message quite a few months back now from somebody who had said me and my best friend have decided to just have a break and. You know, it was getting too much and we, neither of us had the capacity and we love each other, but we just need to rest. And I thought that is bloody brilliant. Mel: Isn't it? That's terrifying. Unhealthy on terrifying. Michelle: Yeah. Yeah. And you have to. Yeah. And it's the boundary same thing. And also, you know, it's about asking him and I think this kind of leads into listening as well. It's about saying, okay, what do you need from me? Like, are you wanting advice? Are you wanting, are you wanting me to say stay silent? You know, when you bring this stuff to me, are you wanting, are you wanting us to come up with a solution together? Or actually, are you just wanting to me to be there? Um, and so it's about bringing like that conversation to the table and saying, what, you know, what do you need from me? What, what do we do from here? Let's be explicit. Let's talk about a plan and put in some boundaries and. Let's get it all out there and see, see where we go from here. You know, put something in place that makes us both feel like we're getting what we need. Yeah. Mel: Yeah. I feel like this is such a, this is so rich and beautiful, but also I imagine that the people listen, are thinking, man, that is so far from how I've conducted my friendship. Gabby: That's what I'm thinking. Michelle: like, Mel: as in like, wow, that's such an amazing like goal for us all to imagine if we did operate our relationships or friendships and in that way that doesn't fail. Like, you know, like we're in a clinician's room, but that really just mixed space for both of us to express what we need and be honest about that. It's like high and credible with. The flourishing of our friendships really be if we were able to do that, whereas I reckon most of us are probably just like, well, they don't listen to me. So I'm just going to, I want to phase myself out and I'm gonna, you know, passively, aggressively not reply for a couple of days or I'm gonna, you know, I'm going to just explode on them and say like, have you ever thought about what I'm going through? You know, like those kinds of conversations, like rather than, um, I guess this is, this comes back to this beautiful stuff you said at the beginning about the self-awareness where, you know, this like really slow way of noticing our responses and our biases, our judgments, our big feelings and how that shows up. Gabby: And if you want more, self-awareness, you know where to go. Go to therapy. Michelle: Facebooks are open. This is all just one big lead up to that. Yeah. For Michelle. Mel: Um, no, but that's, that's just so interesting that it's possible. And do you know what I've seen that as possible because I have actually witnessed you conduct yourself like that in friendship? Michelle: Well, I was just about to say the self, same thing about you. And I don't, I mean, I, um, I'm going to give a real life example and it was a years ago, Mel. I don't know if, if you even remember this, but it was a, well, it was a turning point for us, for me. And then it was when you were living in London and I was living in Essex at the time. And, um, and I had. Um, I really neglected you, I think for a while. And, um, we, you know, I'd got really into my own stuff and I remember getting a phone call from you and I think you'll really get at this Mel by the way. And also you're terrifying to me. so good. You called me up and you said, do you know what, you know, you didn't even find me on my birthday. And, and I feel re I really miss you. And I don't know what's happened, but I I'm really feeling like you don't, you know, you don't, um, really think about me or care about me or, um, and I was like, oh my goodness, that was, I was not even anything to do. Been mad at you or anything like that. I've just been so thoughtless. I need to do, to find me up at that point and say, you know what, like I'm missing a friendship and I need you, I need you back and I need you to remember me. And, and then from that point on, I think I've done a better job at actually being very mindful of that. And that was really important that you made that phone call at that point, I think. Um, but not easy, like incredibly courageous and brave. And we've had, you know, hard conversations since then as well. I would imagine. Well, I can remember too many of them now, but, um, I remember that point has been really significant and actually at the time thinking, yeah, that was a really important thing, you know, it's not that it didn't make me feel like angry at first or frustrated at first, but it was a really important thing to do was to say. I've noticed that, you know, you've got all this other stuff going on. Am I still in your life? Like, do you still want me? Cause I did. I really did. And I need Mel: to back to me and it's coming back to me that, and I think that was because, and I think this is really, really edible. This has come up a bunch. And what we've talked about as well is, you know, you and I had this friendship in the city, we lived in London. We had lots of like, you know, intimate kind of. Times together where that was like really formative and then, oh, I'm going to cry. Michelle. And there'll be a, be male wander in a bite London, not Sam people. Um, but that he, then, you know, then you start at this new life outside of the city with, you know, and had all of these other friends. Um, I know so many of our listeners relate to that because that has come three and like emails and messages for, for them too, is when, you know, even geographically or. Life circumstantially, PayPal people's lives change, and you're not in that same space, um, and high to maintain a friendship that does have some core value to you that has some real, like depth and breadth in your life, but looks different. And I, um, how do you do that? Well, and I, I definitely D I D I do remember that night, cause I was like, she's gone to Essex and she's got all these new friends and I'm just a plebs in London. And, um, and I can't, I can't exactly remember the conversation, but, um, but you stepped up to that. He did, I do remember that, that, just that idea of when friendships move on and, and you kind of feel left behind, like how to talk about that and. Yeah, so common as not even just like, we also get a lot of conversations in our inboxes about like, when's the right time to let a friendship go. Like, how do you know when the right time is to when that reciprocity just isn't like, it's, you know, yeah. You talked about like a seasonal break or arrest or readjusting your expectations of what that friendship is going to provide for you. Um, but I wonder if you have anything to say about the, like the right time? No one when the right time is to let a friendship go, or is it the same process? And it's a big question too. It is a big question. And that's, I mean, I'm thinking about that, that experience that you just mentioned that you and I had right back in this was we're talking 20 years ago. or 15 years ago. Called you up a bite that, you know, is, I guess, is that the turning point where you go, actually, maybe this has run its course or no, I'm really committed to you as a person. Michelle: Yeah. I think, you know, taking that phone call, I just, I felt, I knew that I loved you and I knew that I trusted you and I knew I wanted you in my life. And so it's like, well, if I'm to let this go, that would, I would, I don't want that. You know, I knew, and I think, you know, and I don't want to sound like a broken record here, but, you know, boundaries, boundaries, boundaries. And I think when do you know that something has run its course? Um, the easy answer is to say, you know, what, what are your boundaries about that? Have they crossed boundaries too many times? Um, you know, uh, are you not able to set boundaries. At all with people. Are you able to have honesty conversations? Are you able to also talk about that? So the other day on our market polo, we went from talking about, um, how to support, you know, people in our lives who are transgender to, um, how a mug fails in our hands and what we need, you know, what the perfect mug is. And I had like, you know, are you getting all of this stuff from friendship? Both of those things. Yeah. And then we went on to talk about, you know, how you two hate blue and therefore pretty much hate me because my Gabby: you're changing the narrative. Mel: I would like to address it with you in my solace of Michelle: self-awareness because I, I, I feel like, yeah, I feel very hurt by that, but I still want to be in friendship with you, but can you like, can you be yourself with that person in all circumstances or in most circumstances having said that and I'm coming at it because I've worked a lot with, um, survivors of domestic abuse and, um, And I know that it's just not that easy. You know, it's not that easy to get out of a relationship that is hard and a relationship where your boundaries are being crossed. It's not as simple as me saying, oh, well, you'll know when, you know, and then get out of the relationship. It's not always that easy at all. And so that's why I'm taking, that's why I'm struggling to answer it because I think getting out of any relationship is nuanced and it involves a lot. Um, but I think that there is a question to be asked to, okay, am I able to be my full and free self here? You know, can I say stuff and it be forgiven, you know, can I say, I don't like the color blue and it's given it doesn't so that's why I'm going to therapy right now. Yeah, I find it hard to answer that question about how, you know, when the relationship, I think that there is an element that you do know, but that doesn't mean that it's easy to finish it or get out of it. Hm. Gabby: You've just got me thinking now. I'm like, okay. Cause not every friendship you have. Well, maybe, maybe this is true. Not true for you guys, but I do feel it so that I'm like editing myself for people, but I definitely have friendships where I'm like, I don't know if this part of me would be, I don't know how it would be received. And that has got me thinking now where I'm like, okay. You know, so then what does that mean for the friendship where it's. Is it just mean that's okay. And we just, we don't, you know, I don't know. Is there a situation where that's okay and it's okay to just kind of be like, you know what, you're not like one of my, I mean, not one of my core core people as a result, but you're still in my life and I still enjoy you, but like, you know, there are parts of me that I just probably won't be bringing to you. I don't know. I don't know. I'm just asking kind of wondering out loud Michelle: here. I think it's, I think it's a great question. And you know, if we were in the therapy room, I would be wondering what your answer to that is. only because, you know, my belief is that we really, we are the expert of ourselves that, um, certain approach of therapy that some therapists will take, that we are the experts of ourselves. And it's the messages and life experiences that kind of, um, You know, pile on us that we sort of forget ourselves in the process. Um, so ultimately I would say, yeah, if you're fine with having people in your life that you kind of, um, I'm even reluctant to say at a superficial level, but at another level, you know, you don't necessarily have the decks. If you're fine with that, then that's fine. And I certainly know that I operate like that with people, you know, Mel: I understand there's only, sorry, Michelle: go ahead. No, no, that's fine. I was going to say, I often talk and particularly when I work with young people about, we will often draw a circle around ourselves and I, and I'll say to them, who's in your circle, who's on your team. Like who? And you get to invite those people into that. Like, nobody can step in that circle without your invitation. So who are you inviting into that circle? Okay. But these people in the circle, they need to be the ones that you. Trust who you feel loved by, who are, who you feel respected by. And then you're able to give your full and free self to them, you know, as much as you're able to these people in your circle. Okay. But they can only be invited in by you and then everyone else, you get to decide how much of yourself you give to them. Like it could be, you know, a coffee once every six months more. It could be that you meet up with them weekly, but don't really tell them too much about what's going on with you, because they're not in your cycle. You haven't invited them in for whatever reason. So, um, I know that I have, I appreciate that, that, you know, we can't, we can't actually be at that level of depth with everybody really. Mel: That's what I was going to say. Like, I don't, I don't require that level of depth with me other than, than the amount of people that I can go into on one hand, you know, like I don't require that level of depth in regulation, you know, in like a regular way with it, with many people at all. And I guess I'm, you know, my brand is kind of working backwards a bit to like, so what is it that those relationships then fulfill? Well, it it's joy, isn't it it's like interest and it's, you know, like curiosity about other people's lives and like, maybe about fun or maybe like someone who has a different perspective on things that you get to kind of opt in, opt into their world for a little bit over dinner or someone who's just actually a really good encourager, but you're not necessarily telling them your views are on everything, but they're like a really supportive person. You know, these, all of these relationships that we have, I guess I'm just thinking, you know, we, we experienced them. At different levels all the time. They're always dynamic. Um, and I think ultimately we're, we're all just kind of looking for that balance of feeling seen and heard, um, contributing on connecting. Um, and we're gonna find that in different balances and dynamic setting, you know, throughout our whole lives. So it's going to ebb and flow. Um, but I guess a lot of our, our judgments of what friendship should be is where it gets tricky is when our, when our judgements about high friendship should look and fail. Um, and the, in the world today is, is where is where we can then be like, well, there's something wrong with me or I'm not, you know what I mean? Gabby: No. Yeah, yeah. That's so good. That's so good. Michelle: I think it can be hot in that sense when you feel like you're in it more than somebody else. That, that can be a really tricky one to navigate. Gabby: Yeah. Yeah. Mel: Yeah. And so in that, in that instance, Michelle: I'm not dealing with that one. she's like, Nope, no, I got nothing for me. I don't know. Mel: Well, it is an interesting one. We don't have, like, we're not here to have answers to everything, um, or we're having a conversation, but I guess that is an interesting one. Isn't it? Whenever you want that, you want somebody in your life in a certain way to fulfill something for you. And that's just not, it's not what they want to fulfill. It feels like what we were just talking about, but that is really hard. Gabby: It is hard. It comes back to again, let self-awareness and like being able to, like, I don't know how those have those hard conversations with yourself. I think, I don't know, like it almost, even more than having a hard conversation with your friend, I feel like sometimes it's just like the art of having a hard conversation with yourself and saying, you know, this is what you can get out of this situation and this is what you need and it's okay that you need this. And the kind of like, I don't know, just coaching Mel: yourself through it, Gabby: right? Yeah. Yeah. Compassionate. It's maybe better than like a hard conversation that makes it sound very Michelle: aggressive and what's the need, you know, what's the need behind that. And this is, this is often, I think when it comes back to is okay. If you're in a friendship more than they are with you or that's how it feels. What is it that you're needing, you know, is it that they make you feel popular in which case is it that you're feeling lonely or that you're feeling that you don't have as many friends as you like, so there's a need there. And what does that mean in terms of, um, the attention you give it? So if all the, with all of these things is about curiosity, um, Gable Mettay calls it compassionate, curiosity about kind of going, oh, okay. This person is fulfilling something. Um, some is meeting a need of mine. What is that need? And how do I get it fulfilled in another way, if this feels unequal or there's a power imbalance there, you know, how do I address that? Mel: I love that. But I think framing that as, as your work to understand actually gives you the, gives you the par to then avoid what so many of those conversations turn into, which is like a tit for tat or a blame game and a friendship. Right? So. This, I'll just love, just, I guess, as we're wrapping this up with you, Michelle, just so grateful for like, I've learned a lot today already. Like, just listen to how you're reframing some of this stuff, but like the importance of self-awareness like, if we're coming at our friendships from a place of really understanding what our needs are in those places, and whether that friendship is going to offer that at this point or not, it puts the onus back. It's it's, it's radical personal responsibility as not Michelle: blame, Mel: not blame it's personal responsibility for what you need, um, and understanding that actually nobody can, nobody is required to meet that need for us. Right. That feels really powerful to understand that and then approach your friendships in that way. It's so much more compassionate and less judgemental. Hm. Gabby: Yeah. I would imagine that would allow you to like really hold space for people to be a range of different things Michelle: as well, like Gabby: in your friendship. Like even if there isn't like a quote unquote issue with it, like if you're always going back to, you know, that kind of space of self-awareness, it really does, like you like, like in I'm imagining, because I haven't really done this. I would practice this like consciously, but that it would open up space for that other person to just really be the full range of who they are and to get to like really appreciate. And all those versions of them and ranges of them, um, because you're not, you know, just being the holes into what they can give you, you know? Michelle: Yeah. I think there's just two things to say about that really, really, really briefly one is to say that this is always a, um, it's a practice, not, we are not going to get this right all the time. Um, I do not do this all the time. I might have moments where I do, but this is, this is a practice. Then we'll be practicing this kind of, um, relationship for the rest of our lives. You know, it's really hard, easy to talk about, super hard to do so that's why there's no blame and there's no like end goal. It's like we practice this. Um, and then the second thing is to say that, you know, um, we. We do heal. And we do get a lot from being in community with people and being connected to people. So, um, being self-aware doesn't mean that we shrink back into us, ourselves, but actually being able to connect with ourselves gives us more capacity to connect with other people in a kind of in a more whole and fully free way. So that then we're able to receive the benefits of what it's like to be in relationship of which there are so, so, so many. Um, so it's like, this is a reciprocal thing and it's an ongoing kind of practice of, okay, well, um, I often use the example of being on an airplane where they say, you know, put on the. Put on the oxygen mask, put it on yourself first. You need to put it on yourself first so that you can breathe so that then you have the capacity to be with other people and help them and, and, and help them put them, ask them, we can't do it unless we breathe fast. We take in the oxygen, we put our muscle fast. So that's why it's a, it's an ongoing thing. We Le we become, you know, we work on our self awareness and then we give out in friendships as well. And we're able to receive them friendships. We will have more capacity. It's not a self selfish or self-centered thing today. It's an important thing and a generous thing. Mel: That's really Michelle: good. There's so much more to say isn't there so much more weakened. So, Mel: absolutely. Um, but we are so grateful. Shel, thank you so much for giving us time for being our first guest here. Michelle: I know. Mel: It's always going to be you, wasn't it, Michelle himself. It's going to be you, you know, you're yeah. You're so wise and we appreciate it so much. Um, do you want to tell everybody where you are online so they can kind of find out more about you and, and maybe keep up with what you're doing in your work? Michelle: So, um, you can find me on Instagram, which is Michelle. It's Mel: a social media platform. Michelle: I'm just trying to, I'm just trying to remember my own details. It's Michelle underscore counseling, underscore wellbeing. I think it is. Yep. Just try, try searching around those terms. You'll find me somewhere. And Michelle in there, Mel: there's a counseling in there and a wellbeing Michelle: in there. If not Mel basically gave out my Jess at the beginning of this. So just come and find me at my house. Um, and then, um, yeah, my website is, is hold on, www dot Michelle, hyphen leader.com. And it's L w E D E R. I have one of those names that you always have to spell. Yeah. I'm glad that I'm glad that you Mel: put the www and I'm Michelle: really, yeah, yeah. A lot of people don't put that in. Well, the light web Mel: colon forward, w w Michelle: w Mel: explicit, this is good. Just to finish on a funny note, have you guys ever been on Nigella Lawson since. Michelle: Okay. No, I know you Mel: haven't. Okay. So Nigella Lawson's Instagram, you know, Nigella, right? Like the cook. Yeah. Anyway, she has social put up a picture of a recipe, right. Of, uh, of a dish. And then she'll say recipe of the day is saffron or, you know, Rosato or whatever, uh, murder made with Pearl barley, blah, blah, blah. All the things she says to get the recipe, either go to nigella.com or click on the link in my bio. And then after literally every single post, she says, what I mean by this is that you tap on my name, which will take you to a page that has a link on it that says www.magella.com/instagram. When you click on this link, it will take you to a page of photographs, click on the photograph you want the recipe of, and you will be taken to. Michelle: I need that kind of instruction in my life. I Mel: love it. Every time I see it, I'm like, oh, she really is going for it with explicit. Anyway, Michelle dash leader with dot Michelle: com, www dot WW, Mel: Duffy. Um, yeah. And you have a thera, like a private therapy practice where you have, you know, you take clients. Um, I wish he could be my therapist. I mean, you are sort of, Michelle: I mean, I think we would be terrible together. I think you would tell me what to do. I've worked on, I think, and then I think we would end up disagreeing over the color blue and then I think we would end up laughing. True. And we get nothing done. Mel: I wouldn't, that's not true though. Um, so yeah, that's where you can find Michelle. Shelly P thank you so much for being here today. Michelle: Loved it. Yeah, you're the best. And thank you. You know how much I love this podcast. I love this podcast. You guys are the best piece of me and any much, have you got any much coming out? No. March, Mel: March yet? Michelle: No more shine. Anyway, Mel: thanks again. And thanks everybody for listening and yeah, we'll talk to you guys next week. Bye everyone. Michelle: The.