Episode 04: All About Influencers
This week we’re making an effort with influencers. Dun dun dun! Influencers make us… feel things. Today we talk about the good, the bad, and the emotionally confusing ways promoted posts and product placements make us feel on our own feeds and the social media feeds of others.
Because both of us dabble in the influencer world and create online content for a living, we thought this could be a fun one to unpack a little. Also shout out to our favourite Instagram feed: @influencersinthewild for all the best laughs.
Mel talks about how the influencer world sometimes just feels like a popularity contest with those who are the prettiest or have the nicest homes coming out on top. That their very selection has the ability to make us feel insecure about why we weren’t picked.
We unpack how society is used to consuming content online for FREE and how many influencers are just creators trying to find ways to support their work.
Mel raises a question about how whether we should be calling these people “influencers” at all, or if they should just be called “advertisers?” She unpacks that more with the host of the Hashtag Authentic Podcast, Sara Tasker if you want to check that out.
We talk about having our own personal guidelines for working with brands and how we find having these guidelines help us navigate the onslaught of brands that want to use your voice to promote their products.
We talk about how we LOVE when influencers use #AD breaks (a concept originated by the brilliant Medina Grillo) and just how clean and neat it feels when you come across it on social media.
Towards the end we talk about how this whole podcast is just a ruse to get some kind of sweat pant sponsorship (jokes, jokes… sorta!)
Also if you’re one of those people who are just TIRED of being advertised to WE GET IT. We’re tired too, and are just trying to navigate this brave new world alongside you.
If you have thoughts or aspects of this conversation you feel we didn’t cover well enough— email us!! We want to hear from you! We will be sharing some of the feedback on our next episode.
You can email us at makinganeffortpodcast@gmail.com.
>>> Click here to read the computer generated transcript (note the transcript isn't perfect)
Mel: Welcome to the Making An Effort podcast with Gabby and Mel. The podcast, about all the things we make an effort with some of the things we don't, uh, this week we are going to dive right into the topic of influencer world.
Gabby: Dun dun dun
Mel: dun dun duh. Holy goodness.
Gabby: I feel like we should be.
Mel: Go ahead. We're both having a lot of feelings. Like we have a lot of feelings.
Gabby: I was going to say, I feel like they should come with like a ton of disclaimers at the top, but I just don't know what they are yet. Yeah, I don't either.
Mel: So get the children out of the room. Oh gosh. Just like settle in. Yeah, we. We thought it would be an interesting conversation to talk about the influencing world industry.
I don't really know what the, the cultural term for it is, but, um, I think it's something that both of us have dabbled in and on our social media and that kind of thing. So we thought it would be good to just unpack a little bit about that.
Gabby: Yeah. I think also. I did figure out my disclaimer, disclaimer, is we're not here to hate on anyone or anything.
No, you're definitely going to be critiquing some of the culture around influencer world and asking questions that we think are provocative. But as people who have dabbled in this world ourselves, we are not here to shame anyone. There is no, um, Shade. And I think there's a lot of positives about the quote unquote influencer world that have actually been like really good things.
So we're going to talk about, talk about those as well.
Mel: Yeah, that's a good disclaimer because I think that it, um, it's a conversation that is so hated and so judged and, um, and. You know, the last thing that you and I are a byte is given any opportunity or airtime for women to shame other women.
Gabby: Yep. Not about it.
Mel: So not going there. So I think that kind of naturally leads us to really open the can of worms and just talk a about the. Elephant in the room that is high headed on this whole thing can be, and high influencers do get such a bad rap.
Gabby: Yeah. There's like, it's such an eye-roll thing. I mean, you have influencers in the wild, which is an Instagram account, which I love, which I love.
Mel: Such a good show. Note me up. That's such a good length.
Gabby: It's such a good one. If you you're going to love it, if you don't already follow it. Um, but yeah, just basically makes fun of influencers and, um, just all the crazy stuff we all do for social media. It's a really fun account, but yeah, I think there is definitely a negative association that comes, uh, With the term influencer.
And can I actually share why? I think it is absolutely come. So however many years ago, let's say it was like five or six years ago. Six, seven years ago is kind of like, I still remember the first influencer product placement I ever saw, um, to you. Cause I, yes. Cause it was like literally blew my mind. So I think it was like back in 2013, 2014 and it was, um, one of those Daniel Wellington watches. Do you remember? I got that email. Oh yes. The hashtag live authentic, uh, influencer world where everyone was like living their lives authentically out in the wild forest of the Pacific Northwest. And I remember an influencer posted. You know that she was so excited to be working with Daniel Wellington.
And I was like, those are beautiful watches. How on earth did she? She, she was just given this watch, like detachable straps, what? Yeah, I was like, I just, it blew my mind that there was like a product placement showing up in my feed on this, with this person that I followed. And I think that's kind of. And of course there's like the sense of, I remember at the time feeling like, well, I want that, like, why don't I have it?
And I think that is kind of what, where the, the eye roll comes in, where you're like, you know, you're just going about your normal day. You aren't expecting it. And then all of a sudden, out of nowhere, you're being confronted with an ad where you're not expecting to see one. And I think that for me anyway, I think that's why.
That whole world sometimes rubs me up the wrong way, even though I, to this day participate in it. Right.
Mel: I have many things to say, okay, hit me. Okay. I think that. It is it's massively triggering, right? It's triggering. And I think that a lot of it comes down to the feeling that, that, um, that the influencer title and concept and all that it entails is only handed over in a popularity contest kind of way, which is very triggering of.
Like high school
Gabby: or yeah,
Mel: all of that present all of that failing. And so it's almost like you see someone advertising. Something or being a brand ambassador for something, and you feel like they've been chosen and it's this, and it's because of the MIT to followers that they have, or it's because they have a certain kind of heist or a certain kind of luck or failed, which is all absolutely true.
Gabby: Yeah, it is true,
Mel: right. That is massively triggering because it feels like the. That you, that these people are being rewarded for well privilege. Right. But also rewarded for how many people like them or how many people do you know what I mean? Yup. Yup. So that, that's a really awkward triggering concept that.
Deserves an eye-roll for sure. But also is we've got to have some new yawns and it as well. Yeah. And you know that I've got issues with the word influencer being used the way
Gabby: it is. I know you do up. I
Mel: just, I just feel like, you know, and I, I did a whole podcast, um, enter fee. Well, it wasn't all about this, but a good chunk, a bite of this was.
Uh, my conversation with, uh, my friend, Sara Tasker on her podcast, which we can link in the show notes as well. Cause I've done some research on influence for my, my work, um, and my business. But I think that it's unhelpful to like conflate the influence word with, with advertising. And I know that you maybe have a little, uh, different or.
Uh, different, some different perspectives on that Gabs, but I, I just think, should we not just be calling people advertisers rather than yeah. Influence influencers?
Gabby: I mean, Yeah, I totally hear that. I do. I do think that basically what they are doing is advertising. And so therefore, you know, just, just call it what it is.
But I also think that to just boil someone's essence down to being an advertiser is a bit of an overstatement. So, you know, a lot of people who end up doing. Uh, quote unquote influencing or really what it is is advertising are people who are usually, well, a lot of times as people who are trying to support their creative work through sponsorships.
Right. And so, I mean, for sure you do have like a whole section of the online community that just pays for their lives through advertising. Pure and simple. Maybe they have like a creative spin on stuff. Um, maybe they are stylists, but really at the end of the day, they have learned how to become marketers advertisers. And if they can do that in a creative and engaging way enough, That. Yeah, that is all that happens on their feed. however, I think there's another other subsection of that population that is using advertising to support their creative work. And so to call all influencers are all people who accept ad money on social media, just advertisers, a blanket statement.
I do have a problem with that because. So you can be a writer. Mel: You can be a writer who does advertising. Gabby: Yes. Or, you know, like there are brands that. You know, or like blog blogs or, um, creative communities that take sponsorships that take advertising, um, as a way to like, as a means to support their writers as to support their creative and data. DeVores what they're putting out in the world, because the reality is we are also used to consuming content for free. That is something that we have. We have actually contributed to whether we know it or not. For sure our, our, um, expectation of getting content for free online also plays a role in this.
So you can be angry at influencers and people who do ads. Um, If you want to, but I do think then if you're going to be that person, you should also be willing to pay creatives for Mel: their creative. Yeah, absolutely agree. Hard agree. Um, and I think it's not like that stuff doesn't bother me. Like I just think, right.
But sometimes I think that, and this might. This might sign from and maybe
Gabby: say it, say it,
Mel: but sometimes I think the women who are absolutely brilliant and talented hide, hide behind influencer stuff and actually have burning talent inside of them for their own thing that could make money. Yeah. And I would love to see more of that and, and I get it, like I get like, but at the same time, I know that to do advertise and on Instagram and all that kind of stuff is quite vulnerable because we all know how much people hit it and a ruler eyes about it.
So it is vulnerable. It's not like it's easy in term, like mentally and emotionally. It's not easy. It's quite vulnerable. But at the same time, I think that there are a lot of influencers or people who do that kind of advertising who actually aren't and that's not contributing to their existing. Creative outlets, um, that actually have stuff inside them that they could make money from their own ideas, their own products that they could sell their own services that they could offer that would make them money. That, yeah. Love
Gabby: to see that. Oh, I agree. Totally. And I think that is kind of, I mean, that is your. Whole thing is like, for those of you who don't know, Mel literally runs a business where she equips and, uh, coaches, women to pursue their passion and to monetize it. And you're very successful at that. So I, it makes complete sense why that would be something you would feel super passionate about is seeing women reach their potential.
Um, With the gifts that they have and the talents that they have naturally. And sometimes it can feel like these big corporations, like. Take off. Yeah. Just take it for themselves when you're like, when you're like no Buckley put that energy into the thing that you love, put it into your brand, put it into.
Yeah.
Mel: If you're going to be vulnerable and share about, about something like, I want to hear what you think. I want to hear what you, what you care about. I want to hear what you have to say, what your products are that are inside J rather than like. Tell him. Yeah. Tell me about whatever it is. Uh, although I also, you know, think that women deserve to make money whatever way they want to also.
Gabby: Yes.
Mel: Yeah. So, um, I really believe that as well, but the thing I think that is important to me and it might not be important to everyone else because guess what that happens. Um, I imagine like some people don't find things as important as I find them Gabby. Did
Gabby: you know that? I did know that. In fact, that's why I love you. Mel: I know. I just, but I think for me where it sticks, right? Is I love, I have zero problem. Whenever I see ads on my timeline on my fate. From my friends who have large followings on Instagram, blah, blah, blah. And I know that it absolutely aligns with their values because I know what their values are.
Gabby: Yep.
Mel: So to me, that's kind of like, do you're doing it really well whenever I see a sponsored ad or something come up and I'm like, Oh, that totally makes sense that you would promote that and be paid to promote that because you're so into that. And you talk about that a lot, or that really connects with, um, Stuff that you care about or how you normally shop or things that you love. And we already know that, so it makes sense, but it's the stuff that, and what happens is often we don't know what people's values are. Yeah. And then they advertise products that may be conflict and conflict.
Um, and that bothers me.
Gabby: Yeah, that makes sense. I actually, um, so in my own ad work that I do online, I took a page from an influencer that I fought will use to follow, um, where she had a, she had like a list of qualifiers of brands that she would work for. So you could go onto her website and she would say, Whenever I work with a brand it's because of these reasons.
And I thought that I loved that because it really just made me. And obviously it does kind of, sort of come down to the integrity of the blogger influencer individual. Um, but I just still thought that was good. And I actually adopted it myself. And so there's like a few things like. I tend to, uh, not partner personally with brands that I eat, that I haven't spent money on myself at some point.
Like that's a big one for me. Um, in some shaper or, or other, um, I, or I'm trying to think of what's what's other stuff on my, on my. Own kind of like, and it's actually kind of orienting for me because the reality is like, you get hit up with so much stuff all the time and you kind of, I mean, some of it is stuff you would never even want to do.
And some of it is like, Oh, like I actually would quite like to do that, but. Can I do I feel good about promoting it on my feed? And the reality is for me anyway, the answer isn't always yes. And so sometimes it's good for me to have those guardrails up so that I can project my authenticity. So like, you know, if I've. Like there's a skin care line that I love. And I literally just buy their stuff with my own money regularly. If they want to send me free product to talk about them. I am totally fine with that because I feel like I can do that authentically where it's like, I'm already spending my hard earned money on this.
I would recommend this to a friend anyway. I probably have, I probably do. And so. It makes, I am totally fine. Getting something free out of that. If you want to use my voice to say, to say something about your product, then I would like to be paid for that somehow. Especially if it's something that I already really enjoy. Mel: Absolutely. Perfect sense. And one of my online friends, I girl called, um, Medina, Grillo. She's like an interiors, I guess, influencer, but she, she kind of originated this brilliant concept of when you're doing an ad on, particularly on Instagram stories that you do a little. Add brick story love ad breaks.
That's Medina. She started that and yeah, she did. She's so brilliant. And lots of people have adopted that. And I think that's such a helpful thing to do to just be like heads up. I'm going to advertise. And I, and this supports my work that lots of people can consume for free. So here's the, here's the ad.
Yeah, no, it's just really, it's really, really useful kind of tip, but I love that idea of having like a, yeah, like a little contract with yourself, as well as for the benefit of weeding out whatever Browns you do or don't want to work with. But these are your, these are your qualifiers.
Gabby: I think it can, we really orient, orienting. Um, but I do love the odd break. I've noticed influencers doing that, and I do think. And it doesn't even make me enjoy the ad less. If it, in fact it makes me enjoy it more because I, as a person who creates content for a living, like I get it, it's a lot of work like it actually is. And I think, um, that is something.
Is it the same amount of work is going and working in a hospital every day? Absolutely not. It's not even as much work as being a teacher, but it does require, thought creativity, energy, and, um, you know, if people want to support you so that you can continue to do more of that, I think that's a really good thing.
I, I also have, like, I follow influencers. I, I, there's a very, very small number of influencers who I follow. Who don't do anything except for a product placements ads. And I still follow them and I still enjoy their feeds. I just know what they are. They're like in a different category to me, then not even a lesson, it's just kind of like when I go to their feed, I know what I'm getting, which is, but I still.
For me, because I'm such like a visual person. A lot of times it's like, I love like looking at what they've done with their space, or I'll just like a burst of color on my feed as I'm scrolling or, you know, a lot of times they are like more highly produced images. Um, And in moderation. I like it. I do enjoy seeing that on my feed or if they're funny and their captions like, Oh, I'll stick around for this, like this, then there's
Mel: something that's entertaining me.
It's an about it. That is pure. There is pure entertainment and that's, that's how people make their living is just kind of inject in that little bit of. Yeah, personality and joy and color and or serenity or whatever it is. But I just, I understand why it triggers people so much, um, um, and where it can go badly wrong.
And it's interesting because I think the UK has much more strict guidelines and policies about how to go about it than the U S like I've, I've noticed. And between like people that I follow here and people that I follow and the stats like you can, it gets way more ambiguous. If something is an ad or not, like you don't have to put OD as, like, it's not like legislatively forced that you should, that you have to have ad on your, I want to
Gabby: say that you're supposed to make it clear somehow, but I. There's literally no one enforcing it, if that's the case.
Mel: Whereas there was a whole thing about people being, um, reported to the advertising standards agency here. Yeah. Because, well, just because it is it's disingenuous because people are kind of saying, you know, This, Oh, I love this product, blah, blah, blah. But they'd been paid like 300 quid to put a story, you know, and that's, we need to know that and that's, that's important. That's important kind of information. Um, but then what I also hate is when people try to like hide the ad, the ad, that's why I love this, the outbreak, because if you're going to do it, be frigging proud of it. Can be proud of it. You're obviously not prior to that, if you are, or you're just so embarrassed by the fact that maybe you have had so many in a row or whatever it is. And so what is that a bite? Why, why are you embarrassed? Why, you know, why is that really. Why does that feel so awkward for you? That you have to like have a little tiny ad hashtag ad in like the bottom left corner where nobody is ever going to see it, but you just kind of slip it past people. Like don't do that.
Gabby: I, I mean, I totally agree. I think there needs to be transparency. And for me, I did a whole year where I just didn't until it, where I just stopped. Cause it kind of, it started to take over at first. So there's maybe like three or four years ago. Like I started getting a lot more requests for stuff.
And initially I was like, Oh my gosh, free stuff. This is all I've ever wanted in life. Yes. Just hit me up with all the free stuff. And I didn't even really think much about it. I didn't have like a, you know, A problem with it, or even like any kind of concrete formulated thought or ideology about it. I just was like excited for free things.
And, um, and then very quickly realized that I don't really enjoy doing sponsor. Like I don't enjoy the process of doing sponsored posts. Like I find it very anxiety Laden for me. I do not. Consider myself, someone who's good at styling things like, so I would always just be nervous that I wasn't doing a good job.
And then that nervousness would often translate into like how I talked about the product. And so then I just felt like it was so inauthentic and I didn't enjoy the sound of my own voice online anymore because I just felt like I was like, okay, Forcing this product that I just heard about, like, yeah, it didn't it.
And so I stopped doing it for like a good year or so. And then I, and then kind of came to this place where I was like, well, I'm still putting out all this stuff for free online. And I need to find a way to support it. And so I asked when I kind of created my manifesto for myself of like, you know, it's on my website for people to read if they want to read it.
But really it's just for me because I wanted to have things that kind of guided me in my, my journey in that world so that I could just delight in doing these partnerships. Um, on a personal level, but I do feel like I have to do a huge caveat because I don't know if you know this Mel I have recently become a sweat pant and lounge wear influencer.
Mel: I do know that.
Gabby: And I mean that tongue in cheek, because so far, no one has, sponsored that, that it's just something I'm forcing down, into the universe.
Mel: You're super available for it. And also quite clearly, I am too because every single sponsored ad and post from every brand in the world right now, on my feed is track pants and lounge wear.
Gabby: Yes, everything. We're putting this out there into the universe. If you want to send us free sweat pants, we will wear them. And we will talk about them very authentically, because so far I haven't met a sweat pant that I haven't enjoyed.
Mel: I feel the same, so yeah.
Gabby: Yes, that's, that's my only caveat. It's for sweat pants. Specifically. Yeah.
Mel: And I think if we just keep saying the word, sweat pumps, our phones are going to pick it up. Somehow I get that information to the brands and then they'll get in touch with us, which I'm totally, I think that's how it works. So really the whole, whole podcast episode is just to prepare you guys who are less than that, we will be shoving sweatpant ads down your throat to monetize this podcast. Are you worried? That's not true. I know I'm not actually, I'm wearing, I'm wearing jeans. Um, are you wearing sweatpants?
Gabby: I'm still in my pajamas. Of course you are.
Mel: Um, and I honestly, when you were talking about your experience of, um, advertising, Unlike doing sponsored posts and stuff like that. That is absolutely how I felt all the time.
And I'm interested to like, so whenever I would have got like, cause it is so flattering at first, it's not, if you get those emails and you're like, Oh, this, this company wants to know if you want. To, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah. And there was a full on stage where I would have like registered with the PR companies or like, um, what's the yeah, like, or got use those apps where they, like, if you have 5,000 followers or 2000 followers, you can go in and see what you can apply to advertise and stuff, which is.
And I think it was maybe at the stage where we were like, Oh, I could do with a little bit of top-up money here for something. And I get that, like, I do get that, but it was, it always felt awful. It felt awful for me. Like I just find myself feeling really cringe about it and really inauthentic about it.
So it was very short lived. Um, But then there've been like long-term collaborations with different like ethical clothing companies and like be a dream come true. If an ethical clothing company got in contact with me and were like, Hey, we'd like to pay you to wear our clothes and tell people about them.
I'm like, hell yeah. Um,
Gabby: well, it already would fit so much of what you do because you do talk about that all the time on your feed and the importance of it. And yeah, it, it would just be a very seamless extension of who you are, which I think people would appreciate.
Mel: Yeah. So those kinds of things, although I know any, there's some people who just find any, advertise it on their social media, inevitable, but annoying.
Yeah, that's fair enough, because we're just being advertised to all the time. And I think particularly for women, it can feel really. Uncomfortable for us.
Gabby: Yes. You know, just, I do. I, yes. I affirm all of that and I totally agree. I do think there's a positive of all of this, that as women, or as a woman myself, like I really do appreciate, and that is the financial autonomy that it gives women specifically.
That is super empowering. Um, and that's something that I, I really don't think we can turn our nose up to entirely because the reality is women don't get as good of jobs as men do sadly to this day, they don't get paid as much. They don't get paid for maternity leave if you're in the States. And if you want to have kids, that's almost like a life sentence where you're telling you're being told that you're no longer.
You know, able to make the kind of money that you can make. And so for me, that is kind of where I can't, I can't write it off entirely because I see the good that it does for women. I see what it does for families. And you know, if companies want to invest in these women specific, cause like let's be honest.
Most influencers, influencers are women. Then I'm not going to be the person to stop them because I think somebody should be. Um, yeah. And especially if women are putting stuff out there in the world that they deserve to get paid for and no one's paying for it.
Mel: Yep. I, yeah. I do agree with you. I absolutely do.
I don't often think, I mean, there's just there's so it's so loaded. It's so there's so much more to this that we could be talking about. Um, I know, I know that. And so I don't want to like, do a disservice to the fullness of this conversation and the fact that, you know, particularly black women don't get offered the same opportunities and that world that they don't get offered the cm prep like.
A mindset of money they're expected to do more for free. All of that kind of stuff is so important to understand and makes me like, sometimes just makes me want to throw the baby out with the bath water of the wholesale, because I'm just like burn it all. Dine. It's a whole pile of shit, but. Um, because I just, you know, I just don't want anyone to be yeah.
Excluded in for, in those particularly for those opportunities, uh, when they absolutely should be. So it's, it's that kind of thing that still other, still such a long way to go in terms of the equity in that world. And yes, it's great that more women are being paid. I don't think that what they're being paid is often, um, That much of a hit for the company, the company's advertising for, but women absolutely should be able to make their, their money however they want to.
Um, but it's my deeper held belief that, that women have amazing, brilliant ideas inside of them that I know. They could make money from their own ideas. Right. So that's like a deeper, longer. Conversation and plan and yeah. Yeah. Idea, I guess. But, um, I totally feel that. Yeah. So I hope that this has been, um, a fair conversation.
We'd love to hear your thoughts. So please do get in touch with us on Instagram. I'm @melwiggins. Gabby is @gablouellen. Um, and yeah, let's, we really love to hear from you, but what your thoughts are on this, um, Please feel free to get in touch with us as well at our email. If you want to write something a bit longer, uh, the email is making an effort.
What is it makinganeffortpodcast@gmail.com?
Gabby: That's right.
Mel: And, or you can find all of that, those details, um, and the show notes and everything on our website, which is makinganeffortpodcast.com.
Gabby: Yeah, until next time. See you. Bye.
