Episode 45: Our Non-Expert Thoughts on the Enneagram

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You've heard us reference the enneagram before, so this week we thought we'd share a bit more about how this tool has been useful for us; both personally and professionally. We're no experts, but this episode is a bit about our take.

We reference the Ennegram Institute pretty early on in this episode and is a great place to start if you’ve never heard of Ennegram and you’re interested in learning more. If you don’t want to make the financial commitment to pay for the official test, there’s a great free one on Truity that is highly rated.

You can read the descriptions of each type here.

We also mentioned the Sleeping At Last Enngegram music project where he wrote a song for each type. You can find the album on Spotify here.

If you’re looking to fully deep dive into this stuff, The Road Back to You by Ian Morgan Cron is often sited as the best beginners guide to learning more about your type.

Hope you enjoyed this episode and if you have questions please let us know in the comments OR email us at hello@makinganeffortpodcast.com

Additionally, a big shout out to all our patrons over at the Making Effort Podcast Patreon. If you want to learn more about how to be a patron click here.

>>> Click here to read the computer generated transcript (note that the transcript isn't perfect)

Gabby: Welcome to the making an effort podcast, the podcast for you get to drop in on a conversation between two friends, discussing all the things they make an effort with and some of the things they don't. And this week we are going to be giving our non-expert opinions about. The Enneagram and how it has impacted our lives and our relationships and our perception of ourselves and the world. And we have been planning to do this episode since the inception of this podcast.

Mel: Yeah. I feel like every, everyone and their granny has done an Enneagram episode on their podcast. They have, so I have, so in some ways there's nothing new to say. And so why would. Why we're doing this is because we thought, well, first of all, it came up a lot in some of the chats that other people had said, things that they'd like to hear about. And also, because we talk about it a lot ourselves, like just between us, we have a lot of referencing of that. Um, and we've mentioned it on the podcast before. Maybe there is somebody out there who doesn't know about the Enneagram, but we're not here to do like a here's what all the numbers mean. And this is what, yeah. This is what it's all about. Like, I mean, we'll give you an overview of how we see it, but, um, it's been something that's been significant for us. Yeah.

Gabby: And, and because it has to do with people. It's I think find it always interesting. Um, but yeah, so I don't know. Do you want to do a little tiny, like, you know, Reader's digest version of what the Enneagram is.

Mel: Oh, reader's digest. Remember that? I day, because when my dad, my dad's office, that there was always a reader's digest setting and the wind area. And when I was like, you know, a kid that had to wait for your parents to like, get done where I would always read the stories like the writer, the writing end stories, those ones.

Gabby: Yes. Oh, they're so good. So good. So good.

Mel: Um, Yes, let's come back from that rabbit hole. Um, that's a good one. So my understanding of the Enneagram is that it is quite an instrument to discovery tool for human understanding, how we operate as humans, um, how we understand ourselves and the word. Uh, and our own motivations and our own desires on our own growth, essentially as humans.

So it's not a formula, which I think a lot of people have kind of, I guess it feels like it's been, co-opted a little bit to kind of just like a lot of really kind of important things, kind of social, social media, ISED into memes, but actually is quite a like solid. Really old way of understanding personality, really in

Gabby: depth, like I would say kind of like obnoxiously in depth.

Mel: like once, once you go a layer deeper, you realize there's 12 more layers on. You're like, oh, I can barely barely handle the confrontation of this one layer.

Gabby: Yeah. Like, so if you've never, if you've never heard of the Enneagram and you are interested in it, um, I would say that. Uh, technically the way you're not supposed to test, it's not supposed to be a personality test where, you know, you like you take a Myers-Briggs and you find out what you are, it's supposed to be.

You kind of learn about all nine different personality types or I'm getting the language wrong. This is a non-expert. Oh yeah. What are breakdowns? So please don't come back at me with like corrections. This whole thing is a corrections corner. I get it. But this is my understanding of it. So there's like 19. Personality types or categories that people fall into. And, um, what you're supposed to do to find out which one you are, is to read through the descriptions of all of them and kind of make some decisions from there. I don't know about you Mel. I did the cheater's version where I went on any Agram institute.com and I did the personality test and, um, and then worked backwards from my results and was. It took me a while though. Yeah, because I've tested a couple of times. The first time I tested, um, I was a two, which I thought I was a two for the longest time. Um, because I didn't retest. And then the more I read about the Enneagram and the more I kind of learned about the two, I was like, this is not me at all. Um, I am not very helpful. The two is supposed to be the helper. It was actually Chris. He was like, You never helped me.

Mel: The core of this is Naji.

Gabby: Not like I do not get the sense that like, everything you want to do is to like help me my life improve and get better.

Mel: Um, so is there a part of the two that you did like connect with that?

Gabby: Yes. Yes. So I took the integration. When I was a new mom and I felt very like stretched. And like my whole life suddenly felt like it was like living for someone, someone else, um, which is often how a new mom can feel sometimes. And so I was like, this is me, this is it. And like, I like listened to, well, I'll talk, we can talk about the sleeping at last series where he did, uh, He wrote and ne a song for each Enneagram type. And I listened to his song and, uh, for the number two, and I was like weeping partially because it's a beautiful song. But also, cause I was like, this is like I'm in the thick of it. And then kind of when like the, you know, the dust settled a little and I was able to remind myself who I was as a person, apart from motherhood. I kind of revisited it and I came back and tested it as a four and I really resonate with all the forest stuff, but a lot of the people who really know me in my life were like, you're not a to yeah. And I told them like, uh, so my, my, my best friends from college, like I told them, and I have one friend Nicola who's really into the anagram. And she was like, No, no, sweetie.

Mel: No, sweetie.

Gabby: Um, but that's really sweet that you thought, oh, twos are kind of the best virtuous. Yeah. Yeah. Like they're very like warm and kind and all of

Mel: those things, but that's, I wouldn't say that that's your defining. That's not a real, like, defining part of. Yes. Okay. So

Gabby: that was a very rambly way to like enter the Enneagram.

Uh, but yeah. What would you want to go through that? Like, I don't know. I remember people already know about all this stuff and that doesn't matter. Um, I, I

Mel: basically, what I would probably do is go. Uh, I'll, I'll say the numbers and then I'll be like this person in my life. Is this person this number? No.

Cause I mean, you hope, I'm sure most people, if you're familiar with this whole thing, you have someone who identifies strongly with a number of every number. Um, so yeah, I'm happy to do that. Um, so the there's these nine types, I think originally. Actually like way, way, way, way, way back when it was formed, it was originally around the seven something around the seven deadly sins, and then they just added a couple in, is that right? Gabby: I did not know this, but yeah,

Mel: I wouldn't be surprised something to do with that. Um, and then they realized that there was a couple missing. I don't know. I don't know. Don't come at me if that's wrong, but I, I do think that was part of it. Um, and so each type. Has a, a core motivation. And I think that's probably, I think that's probably the most helpful way that I've been able to articulate it is that you're not looking for, oh, I, I do that or, oh, I see. I'm so like that it's, it's really about like, what is the core motivation for how you operate and move in the world? Um, and from there you can get. I guess stretch out to some of the other things and identify other characteristics or motivations or fears, core fears. Right. Um, so we've got, uh, any ground number one, the reformer, or sometimes called the perfectionist. This is, this is my type. This is the one that I identify with the most. So, um, I'll. I mean, I'll read what it says, but I also, you know, I do identify with a lot of this stuff. So principled, purposeful, uh, perfectionistic, um, controlling, always can always can see what needs to be re like improved. I'm very sensitive to criticism. Um, the reformer, the helper, the cab. Alter ego, M it's number two. So quite a, uh, caring, demonstrative, generous people, pleasing type, um, caring, always ready to help, um, and support number three, the achiever. So someone who is really into a really driven really quite and to excellence and to success. On their, on their own terms, um, wants to be seen as successful can be quite pragmatic. Do you want to go ahead and do for, Gabby: uh, yeah, I'm like kind of trying to pull up the cheat sheet in case I get it wrong. Go

Mel: for it. Hold on. We know enough. I trust, I trust that we know enough.

Gabby: Okay. So, uh, the four is the. Individualist or right. Yeah. Um,

Mel: or the romantic author

Gabby: romantic. Yeah. Okay. From Antech individualist. And the way I understand the four is that your core motivation is like authenticity. Um, and also, uh, your other core desires are being unique and special, but. Uh, cringingly so relate to, uh, but yeah. Fear of like being inadequate or something, not being authentic or being played in mundane. Uh, so yeah, that's the romantic number four. The five is the investigative thinker. Um, so just very perceptive, insightful, intelligent. Like very research oriented. Um, their core desire is to be capable and competent. Um, and maybe some fears of being invaded, their space being invaded or being thought of incapable or, or is ignorant. The six is the loyalist loyal guardian, um, very committed and responsible, faithful, a bit suspicious of. Definitely anxious at times. Uh, and then we've got the seven, which is the optimist, um, and sevens are playful, scattered, escapist, love fun. Um, and. Sometimes, sometimes kind of deal with some gluttony. Mel: It feels so judgmental.

Gabby: Cause I like, especially when you like have friends that are like identified as some of them, and you're like, I don't think that about, you know, uh, and then I'll just, I'll rattle through the last two. Uh, eight is the challenger very assertive, confident, and. Sometimes confrontational. Um, and then, and like protective and then number nine is the peacemaker peaceful meditator. Um, very receptive, accommodating, sometimes a bit resigned, especially in the face of conflict. Um, but very thoughtful and yeah, peaceful. And now we're going to take a quick break to hear a word from our sponsor. We're all different. And we all have the right to feel comfortable in our own skin and in the clothes we choose to wear, which is why we're so excited to partner with organic basics. Organic basics is a clothing company that makes eco-friendly underwear active wear and essentials that are durable, sustainable, and comfortable enough to wear. Along with adding new colors to their collections, we're getting basics is expanding their size range with the addition of five new sizes to their underwear line this year I've or mine, my organic based sex for years now. And they've seen me through so many body changes, including postpartum while keeping me comfortable and support. My organic basics. Fraud is still one of my go-to. So they pack on every trip and has lasted in the wash room many years more recently, I've been wearing my organic basic sweater nearly every day during these cold months. And it's the perfect standalone piece that can also be comfortably layered, well being gentle on my skin and gentle on the environment. We're so proud to be partnering with organic basics to offer our listeners 10% off your order with no minimum purchase. Just use the code making OB 10 at checkout to apply this 10% discount. That's M a K I N G O B. And the number 10 offer is valid from now until April. Enjoy. So those are the, those are the nine types if you've never heard them before. Um, and when we kind of shorthand, oh, so-and-so is such an Enneagram, whatever, this is kind of what we're referencing. And I do think it's a useful tool. I know it has become maimed and there are certain rules of the, any ground. Like you're not supposed to type other people. Uh, you're not supposed to type your kids. Um, You know, all of that stuff. It's not supposed to be a shortcut for understanding people, but it does help. I don't know. I wonder if you relate to this mill. I think sometimes one of the things I find very helpful about it is it does a couple of things. It helps you kind of sift through information in the world. So like, if you meet someone who says I'm a three. It gives you some information because at least tells you how they perceive themselves. Um,

Mel: yeah, although it's, it's, you know, I did, I did a workshop for my assembly members. Yeah. A couple of weeks ago and brought in my friend, Claire, who is a trend Enneagram coach. Um, my brother showed that around this of this episode, you know, she made a really good point, um, up, quite high, telling someone your number is quite a vulnerable. Right. Yeah. Cause we all have our assumptions about what that means then. Right. So you have an S you'll have like a basic generalized idea of what you think about a three or a T, you know, and if someone's to say that, you know, I guess our natural default setting as humans is often to kind of think about which part of those. Are the bits that we don't like about somebody or a bite that number and associate, Ooh, I wonder if they are really image conscious, you know, as a three, or I wonder if they are like a walkover as a, to, you know, like stuff like that. Um, totally. And so it actually is a really, she talked about how it's actually really, really vulnerable to be. And sometimes people share their numbers so freely, um, without thinking about what that might. What other people might assume about them within that? Um, because it is such a big nuanced type type apology, isn't it? It's a real, like, yeah. Deep, uh, no, uh, no one experiences being a one as in the, in the same way. Right. Totally have a lot of, a lot of friends who are ones and. In fact Sasha and Helena who both work in my team are all three of us. Identify as ones. No

Gabby: wonder you get so much done. You guys are just like a machine well-oiled machine.

Mel: Funny women and Ellie who worked for me before was also a one. Um, oh my gosh. And it's really, really interesting. But it's really funny because I'm, I have such an awareness of like the high standards of, of myself and often how that transfers onto other people that I have to be super aware of that as the leader of that team and as the employer of those incredible women. So, you know, like I've, it's good. It's a good thing. I, I see it as that. I like that because what, I'm the worst thing that I'm thinking about myself? I, you know, I know I can show compassion to that if that's what their experience and as well, um, we have just like a mutual shortcut understanding of our high standards, or if we need to give feedback, you know, ones tend to be very, because they have such a strong, like inner critic or critical nature. Receiving feedback can be devastating. And so monitoring that within a work setting has been, you know, it's been helpful to kind of understand that myself and be able to monitor that I would want it to be managed if you know what I mean. Oh, definitely.

Gabby: I think you've touched on something. Important there. That is like ultimately what the Enneagram is actually for is for knowing yourself better. So then you can move through the world and your relationship more, more equipped with compassion and understanding and grace, because you know yourself better, not because not necessarily because you're trying to. Categorize and pinpoint other people in your world. So like, you know, you're talking about like, well, I know I'm, I feel like too, like if you've never done any like actual self critical thinking, which it's hard, it's really hard to do that. And I think a lot of us struggle to do that. And maybe sometimes the only time we ever do that is like, when we're with a therapist or, you know, some kind of coach or mentor where we're doing that. But if you don't. You know, you don't have time or money to do that. I think the Enneagram is a really great way to take a really real look at yourself. Like what are my actual boundaries? What am I good at? What am I not great at? Um, and then how can I just take that information? Non-judgmentally and. No, my boundaries when I like interact with other people and when I pick jobs and when I choose things that I want for my life, um, that I think is the actual purpose of the Enneagram. I'm not so that you can like, make sense of everyone

Mel: else and hold it over PayPal. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Which is, I know that that can be a real common. Thing. Right. Like when Dave and I first started getting into it and we recognized each other's numbers and we, you know, we were kind of digging into it a bit more. There was, there were so many moments where it was just like, you're really just being a one here or you're just like, he's a sec. So it would be like, you are the 60th six that ever six right now. And, you know, kind of use it as a weapon. Um, you know, that's obviously. And sometimes it's in good humor, but yeah, it can also be a stick to beat somebody with, you know, like just, well, mostly that's not really fair. And th the really interesting thing about the Enneagram that I've realized is that yes, you have this core belief and motivation and fear that helps you to identify and narrow in on maybe one number, but then you have. A bunch of other numbers that you get to explore because every number goes to one number and growth and every number goes to another number and stress. And then each number also has a wing on either side, which is the number adjacent to eight, you know, like the, for a one, it would be a two and a name. Um, and then, you know, There's levels where you have to really get to understand. So all of the numbers and in lots of ways, because yeah, in some ways it, it really does affect your understanding of yourself on, oh, I know all these other numbers as well, which is really cool. So you can't really get away from it. Do you know what your like, growth and stress. I'm just going to go into that and the,

Gabby: uh, yeah, so, well, I think that's funny that you bring that up because literally yesterday, so when I'm in, when I go into growth, as one fours go into growth, they, uh, really lean into their one wing. And I T I, I actually titled an email to Mel the other day. I am like fully in my one wing right now. So organized. It's not a wing though, like, sorry, not wing, but I did say wing in my email and like I knew that was one Ascension. Um, yeah. So when I'm in growth, I identify with a lot of one traits. So, um, We are getting stuff done there, spreadsheets involved. There are checklists. There are, you know, just like a high standard of like quality work. And I love when I'm in my one growth, like mode, like that is one of my happiest times. Um, and then when I. I'm kind of regressing. I take on some of the negative traits of a two, which is

Mel: why, because you identified with that,

Gabby: which is why I think I kind of thought I was a to, um, to begin with. Um, so like very like, and this isn't what I too is, this is just some of the more negative sides of. What it can be to be a, to, um, it can be very like manipulative and like a little self-absorbed and, um, yeah, just some not good things, full resentful. And I definitely relate to all of those as well. Like when I'm in a, not a good place and I can kind of feel myself slipping. Like some of those are definitely some things that I relate to. Um,

Mel: What's funny is that my stress number that I go in decline is a four. Isn't that funny? Isn't that funny? So, yeah, and I get, and I think that the, um, what they, what they say or what, what Claire actually said on that call that she did that, um, with my, my community a couple of weeks ago, was that, um, the, I guess the goal for. Uh, one who goes to four and a stress would be to be looking at the highest part of a four. That would be like, that's almost like you're here. What you should be focusing on if you're in that stress. So fours are highly creative. Um, love, uniqueness, love ideas, you know, love, um, Yeah, all that kind of stuff. So it's interesting. So for you, I guess in the highest part of a two is where you need, need to focus on that site, where you often, where you need the most work is what and assets they were saying.

Gabby: I would say like the good parts of it too. Like the, that, that really like selfless, helpful. Side of it too. I do not. I could do better at like really trying to bring that forward in my life. Oh boy.

Mel: And then probably similarly, if like looking at the lowest part of your gross number, right? So for my, my growth. So whenever I am in like health, One as a one, I go to seven, which is that kind of like spontaneous, free ferry, like enthusiastic about life ferry. Um, like sevens are often real, like. Dynamic people that people want to be around, you know, those kinds of like life of the party life. And so, um, and you know, I can see when I get to go to that place, that it's really, yeah. That is really. A sweet spot for me, but I guess if we're talking about the highest part of your stress number, we should look at the lowest part of your gross number today. And what are the things that are that seven struggle with the most? Then I need to have an awareness of those things as well. So I don't know, does this all sound like complete gobbledygook to Gabby: does, but. I think the other thing I really like about the Enneagram, I don't know, maybe this is an old wives tale, but I have heard that the more you grow in personal development, the more you're supposed to relate to all the

Mel: numbers, you kind of grew out of your number and integrated in a lot of the other.

Gabby: So it's like, it is kind of like a, like, You get kind of ascend to this place where it's like, you feel very balanced and, um,

Mel: I do you notice, sorry. I was wondering if you noticed that this was like, if you can relate to childhood, like, would you have seen that you were a four as a child? Like, if you think about little gal by which she has been a four, do you think?

Gabby: definitely think so. Um, the only thing, so like, again, this is like some language lingo that I'm throwing out here that if you've never encountered any grand before, might sound a little weird, but like every, uh, any gram type has its own. Childhood wound and it's kind of supposed to be this thing that happens in your childhood, uh, that kind of helps define who you grow into. Um, and it, you know, you have pressure parents, usually when your own six or seven, I think is the age. Um, and I really related to the two childhood wounds. So I, it's not that I didn't relate to the four one, um, I don't even remember it off the top of my head, but I remember thinking for again for the longest time being like, well, maybe I am a two. Um, but yeah, I, I would, I would say looking back, I'm pretty. Pretty solidly a four across the board.

Mel: So I'm just gonna read out the childhood wounds of each type.

Gabby: So do it. That sounds fun. Buckle up Mel: your therapist on speed. Dial. Um, so for any grim ones, the childhood wound is self judgment. So being responsible, reasonable catching your mistakes before other people day, uh, for the twos, it's self sacrifice. So putting your needs as a child on the back burner, um, for the threes it's rejection of core self. So hiding your insecurities and failings with accomplishments. Successes, um, to feel where they, um, for fours, it's a rejection of identity. Um, I can't be too functional or happy because nobody sees me for who I really, um, um, for fives it's rejection of intimacy. So I need to develop some mastery as a child because I don't want to get too comfortable with. The things that I can do or know, um, for sixes rejection of trust, it's, you know, a message that it's not okay to trust myself. I'm not, I won't be safe until I can find someone else or something to fully trust that wound is present, um, for sevens, absence of nurturing. So, um, that might be that they feel they can't depend on anyone. Um, You know, use a, can use distractions to, um, to not feel like I can not depend on people, not feel, feel that grief, uh, it rejection of childhood. So I can't be vulnerable. Um, um, if I can be self-sufficient in this situation, I won't get hurt. Um, and then for the anagram nine child, it would be the rejection of their voice. So I can't assert myself here or my needs and like, I can't rock the boat and if I don't rock the boat, then everything will be fine. Uh, those are really, really sad and significant and I'm sure relatable for so many of us. Um, yeah. Um, You know, our own upbringings or experiences of childhood. And I mean, those are pretty big blanket things, but I'm sure within them, there's no guts of re I, you know, really getting for sure. Hey, everyone, we wanted to take a quick break in this episode and let you know that we have a Patreon page NAI. Uh, you know, we love, love, love during this project. Each week I'm connected with you and RPA on page is a way for you to get to hang out with us and for us all, to be together even more and help us cover the cost of running the podcast. So we can keep our sponsored ads to a minimum. Uh, it's just $5 or four points a month to access it. And we have some really exciting plans for spending more time. If you guys are. So when you become a patron, you'll get access to our monthly, making an effort magazine where we're going to be sharing all of our best recommendations for food and books and TV and music and what we're wearing and all that good stuff at you'll. Get a patron only extra video podcasts from us each month and an invitation to join us for our annual. Making an effort, virtual cocktail party, where we get to hang out together. Um, maybe each other more. So if you want to join the Mecca and effort gang, you can find a link to our patron and the show notes, or you can go to www.patrion.com forward slash making an effort podcast. Can't wait to see you inside. How would you say that your. How would you say that? This to huh? Helped your relationship? Yeah.

Gabby: Uh, I would say for my marriage has been really helpful because Chris and I are both fours. I know he wouldn't mind me sharing. Um, and that is an interesting dynamic because

Gabby: You guys know we're both Leos as well, which is crazy. Um, it's both Leos, both Enneagram forest and. Our biggest conflict that we wrote most regularly having our, our marriage is who's taking up the most emotional, real estate or attention in the relationship. So like, we will often have fights that are like, it's my turn. And usually I'm the one who's most guilty of like just preaching in the spotlight and all of my needs and all of my annoyances and all of my happiness is. Like, if you, if you're, if you know, a four, if you're in a relationship with a four, it doesn't come from a malicious place, but they have a hard time focusing on not themselves. Um, and I definitely find that true in my marriage. Uh, And that is like having kind of knowing that just like non judgmentally about ourselves has actually really helped us like understand the other, how the other person is processing us. So like, if you can kind of divorce yourself and say, you know, it's not that this person doesn't care about me. I just know, because I know what it's like to. To feel like all of my ideas are worthy of publishing. Right. That is what I like. I truly believe about myself. I was just so cringe and really, really,

Mel: really do. I, um, I feel the same. That has definitely been our experience, you know, with Dave being a six. And having that kind of suspicion about lots of things or this kind of level of trust and being trustworthy is so important to him. He risks, he risk assesses everything and considers that himself. You know, all at all times, and this is always true. The most reliable person in the room, he is usually like, that is true. Um, it means though than that are often our biggest conflict can be if I have to, if I'm doing something and it's like, he, he will struggle to trust that I'm going to do it. Right. And so then that brings up the kind of. PN of criticism, that ones fail. Whereas he's just wanting, he's just wanting to make sure that everything's safe and done well and taken care of growth in a responsible way. And I'm like, why can I not do things right for, you know, like, I'm just like all up in my criticism and judgment. Space where I, you know, I T I received that whole it's, it's more about him wanting to be, to make sure that everything's in order and taken care of so that nobody is at risk or nobody is. You know, unsafe or on, on looked after and it comes, it definitely comes from that place. But then I received that as well. You obviously don't think that I'm capable or you don't know.

Gabby: Oh, that makes so much sense. That makes so much sense. I never thought about that before your dynamic of like, he thinks he's doing like this huge. You know, reliability, providing a wonderful service and he is, but he's also triggering. Yeah. Harley

Mel: sweetest spot is whenever Dave is in his seven spontaneous wing of a sex. So when he's like feeling free and let loose, mostly when we're like out our caravan up in the north coast and I'm in. Growth space of a seven. So we feel very like seven is like our is our Mecca of Andy grubs. Nice. But we've got it. We've got to try hard to get to there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. It's got some depths of this stuff. Um, and we'd love to hear from you guys if you've used this, if you found it helpful, if like in your own life, if you're new to it. I end up going and reading through the numbers or taking a test. If you're a rebel and finding out something about yourself, we'd love to hear. If you do that, um, you join us as we can continue to geek guide on this stuff. I know from time to time. So please feel free to write in, um, you know, we're at hello, making an effort podcast. I'll call. Yeah.

Gabby: Yeah. And we'll put some resources in the show notes as well, like books on this stuff. You know that any agreements to toot website and maybe something that last year as a podcast was sleeping at last songs that each type will give you a little beginner's guide.

Mel: Yes. And also, before we go, I want to remind you that we are taking your most embarrassing or cringe stories or ones that you've heard. You can never shake of someone else's, um, for a colon episode, we would love to hear them we're going to share our own. Um, but we would love to hear them. Um, so feel free to email us with those. Send us a voice note. You can figure out how to do the voice note thing by going on the, making an effort podcast website, and go into the contact page. Um, and there's instructions on how to do that, but send us your embarrassing story. We really want to hear them. We do. We do. All right. That's been fun tuning in guys. Yeah. Thanks everybody. We'll see you next time.