Episode 50: Turning Towards Love with Tara Mohr
We are so thrilled to be able to sit down and have a conversation with one of our personal role-models, Tara Mohr.
Tara is a coach, speaker and author of the best-selling book 'Playing Big'. Tara shares generously about embracing different seasons of life, ambition vs capacity, and turning towards love of self and others as the healing posture the world needs right now. This episode has stayed with us and we hope you love it too.
Here are a few of the resources from Tara we mentioned in the episode.
Tara’s website www.taramohr.com
>>> Click here to read the computer generated transcript (note that the transcript isn't perfect)
Mel: Hi everybody. Before we jump into the episode today, um, I want to just to share a little bit more about why we are so excited to be talking with another guest today on the podcast today, we have author later coach at Tara. Um, and some of you will know Tara's name and have read her work before. If you don't. Tara has written a book called playing big. She wrote it like 12 years ago and, uh, she leads a program. A course, several courses be asked to run the models that she has written about in playing big. And I first came across her work probably about five or six years ago on it as absolutely being a game changer for me. Um, and you will absolutely hear me fine girl, over Tara in this episode. So much wisdom to share with us. And I am so excited to introduce you to her or, um, for you to hear more from her, if you already are aware of her work at Gabby came more recently to, to Tara's, um, writing and her work and is also equally loved it. So we might, uh, talk in real familiar terms today, a bite playing big and some of the aspects of her, her playing big model, which looks at your inner critic and helps you to connect to your intuition on your inner wisdom or your inner mentor. Um, so I thought it would be helpful for us to give a little intro just so you can, I guess some context, uh, to that before we dive into the interview, you're not going to want to miss this. Um, there were tears, there was laughter. Um, and so, so much depth and richness of wisdom. So please enjoy our interview with Tara. Tara: Um, Mel: welcome back to the making an effort podcast, the podcast where you get to drop in on a conversation with two friends, discussing all the things they make an effort with. Um, some of the things they don't. Hi everybody. Um, welcome back. We are so excited today to be talking to the wonderful Tara Moore. Um, Tara, uh, for those of you who haven't heard of her work yet, um, Tara is an expert on women's leadership and wellbeing. She is the author of the incredible book playing big practical wisdom for women who want to speak up, create and lead, um, which was named a best book of the year by apple IBEX. She is the creator and teacher of the global playing big leadership program for women and the playing big facilitators training for coaches and therapists, managers, and mentors. Um, she is a co-active training Institute, certified coach with an MBA from Stanford university and an undergraduate degree in English lit from Yale. Um, her work has been featured everywhere on national media. From the New York times, the today show the Harvard business review. Um, and she lives in San Francisco with her husband and her kids. Hi Tara. Tara: Hi. So nice to be here with you. I'm delighted. We get to have this conversation. We're Mel: so Gabby: excited to have you here. Um, I actually, well, yeah. Do you, do you want to share Mel about how you got plugged into Tara's work Mel: and we can go from there? Yeah. I mean, I think I was trying to look back and old emails of when I first did the plan by course with you. And I think it was 2018 or 17 that I, um, I was, I did that. And then I was like, I am not ready to not do more work with her. So I like hung on for another six months. And did your facilitators training, um, which has been so, so useful for me, I can't even tell you so much so that I keep re sign up as an alum to like, get your emails and make sure that I'm not missing anything new and see all of those updates that you've made to the program. Um, and it's just been. Yeah, so rich and so rewarding for me as a coach to have learned from me. So this is like a moment for me. Yeah. Tara: Thank you for that. And I, as I say, I remember, I, I really remember how much I always loved your questions in the course. Like you always had great questions and great scenarios. You were sharing such a pleasure to have you be part of it. Mel: Oh, I would pay good money to go back and listen to 2018 mail. Ask your questions. Yeah. Oh my goodness. Gabby: Oh boy. Yeah. Well, and I, I actually just started reading your book at the end of last year, um, because I heard of heard about it on another podcast, uh, the beautiful mess podcast and they had, they talked so much about how your book completely changed their life. And, um, I just was like, yeah, this is the kind of energy I want to go into the new year with. Um, and I love it as well. And so when Mel and I were dreaming up who we wanted to have, come on the podcast this year, uh, you were definitely at the top of both of our lists. And so we just feel really, really excited to have you here. Tara: Thank you. That's so nice to hear. Gabby: Well, we kind of wanted to dive right in with the first question. Um, so it's, it's actually been seven years, right? Since you released playing bag, um, what does, what does life look like for you right now? How has life changed for you since. Tara: Um, yeah, some ways, lots of changes. And in some ways not too many changes at all. Well, I wrote the book when I was pregnant with my first son. And so with my first child, I was sending a daughter and, um, now they're, you know, eight and five. So I guess it must have been a little more than seven years, something like that, but something around there. And so, um, you know, so much has changed and I'm right. Trying to write about a lot of that change now and just even begin to articulate it because I think, you know, when we go through really immense change in our life of any kind, you really can't wrap your mind around what the change is. You have no distance on it. And you also, I think get in that, um, Very unformed, Chrysalis type, state of transition. And so not only can you not articulate what's happening, but you yourself are just kind of an amorphous thing and transition, but I'm starting now like seven year, you know, to be able to articulate some of those changes. So I would say, you know, I, uh, My life is much less about kind of the path of self-actualization and it's more about the path of connection. Um, and just day to day, you know, I used to get up and right now I get up when someone yells my name, yells mom, and, you know, there's a lot of things that happened before I can give my brain over to my work. And, um, and I also feel, I guess the other thing that's changed is I think in my work, I just love, you know, I still teach the plain big course. I've been teaching it since 2009. Um, And somewhere around, I don't know, two, two years ago, three years ago, it just felt like it all kind of steeped all the materials, just steeped for me in a really good way where it just feels more natural and rich than ever. And so I just love coming back to the same material year after year. Um, and I feel like the dialogues we get to have in my courses and workshops are kind of better than ever too. Yeah. Mel: That is a really, that's a really cool thing to hear you say actually, because one of the things that I think about is like you have, you know, I guess publicly, I don't know what else you have, but, um, these that you have your book and you have the two programs that you run. And like you said that you've been running that for such a long time. Um, and it is such rich material, but I know even for myself, like some of the things that I have talked about for even just the last four or five years, sometimes I'm like, oh, are we talking about this again? Like, is this right? You know, like, I'm, I know that this is probably so new. Like GABA has just read your book, you know? And it's been night for 10 years or whatever. Um, no, not 10 years, but eight years. But like, people are still really discovering this stuff. Like, I guess that is, that is remarkable in so many ways, because it has such longevity and it has such spam, you know? Um, I'm interested in like, how do you, as the. As the leader of all of that, like stay, stay connected to it. Is it? Yeah. Like what is it that helps you stay connected to the playing big methods? Models message. Tara: Yeah. Well, I think there is a bit of a paradox because I am writing new. I like I'm writing a lot of new material and on the Sunday sessions that we do, I'm teaching very new material. And somehow having that in the mix too actually helps me stay fresh. Or like, I think if I somehow was telling myself, I could only do the stuff that was old, it would actually feel more tired for me, but because it's also creating, um, it doesn't. And I think, you know, I mean, one of the things. I, I feel I'm so grateful that the way the trajectory with the playing big work unfolded, and sometimes people who are thinking of writing a book or who have a coaching practice find this helpful. Like I went from a very small coaching practice that I did a few hours a week on the side of my day job. And I could test those principles with those first clients. And then I could sort of see what was working consistently. And then I had like small workshops and then I had bigger classes and eventually I had, and then eventually the book, but because of that and because I still teach classes, there's still, you know, there's still real humans all the time coming with like, well, what about this scenario? What about this inner critic? You know, or my inner mentor visualization. So it's kind of like, how can I not stay connected if there's a person there with field questions that I feel obligated to try and answer as best I can. Yeah. Mel: Yeah, of course. I mean, I just find it even, even haven't done your first program, which is, it is really diving into the primary concepts right. Of the plain bake, um, model and, um, tools then to go into the facilitator training, you're doing the same kind of stuff again, but obviously you're with different people and even just that, like, it was so, so different, such a different spin, um, and, and the diversity and yeah, I mean, I absolutely love that about your work. It brings in people from all over the world. Like I just was sitting in rooms with all of these incredible women of whom I still talk to so many of them, I still have connections with and yeah, it's really cool. It's really cool. That was so good. Um, Yeah, I thought, Gabby: well, I was just gonna say, I have to say so as a, a relative newbie to your work, I am just finding it. So, I mean, I don't know, we have got lots of questions, but I just I'm finding it. So just encouraging to hear you talk about waking up to the sound of mom. Cause I'm like, that is such a relatable experience for me. Like right now in my life, I feel like so much of my work and who I am as a person is wrapped up in this role of motherhood. And that, I mean for better or worse than you do talk about this quite a bit. Um, we don't like when we, we cut, we kind of have an idea of in our minds of like what we think, um, Success oriented women are supposed to look like I'm using air quotes right now. And so I think it was really refreshing for me to come into your work and just, you have so much about the, about real life, about intuition, about spirituality that I just found so relatable and I continue to fight it so relatable and just so profound to be seen in that way. Um, and I, I wondered if you could speak about that a little bit more about why those elements are important when you're dreaming about when you're a woman and you're dreaming about what you want your life to be a little bit. Tara: Yeah. Or really, I think for anyone who is dreaming their life to be. Yeah. You know, it's interesting because I guess what I, what I really, um, started from, you know, with, with the playing big work, like what that originated from before it was called. You know, playing big in my own mind or anywhere was a couple things. One was, I was, um, just had finished graduate school. I was sort of in my first like serious job. And, um, I was noticing two things. One was that I had every reason to be confident and I was not at all confident, like I had done well in school I had was doing, you know, getting good feedback in my job. Like I had kind of checked all the boxes that the grownups had sort of said, do these things when you're growing up. And then you'll, you know, you'll be well positioned to be whatever. I don't know what a success, the successful air quotes person in the world. But I was finding, I was very, um, self-doubting and kind of always felt like, um, if that was a good idea, someone would have thought of it already. And I. And the other bigger piece of that, I was like, I had really turned my back on. Most of my real loves in my life. Like my love of dance, my love of creative writing, my love of personal growth and spirituality sort of things. I had grown up loving and they had all fallen by the wayside at one point or another some because of issues of confidence for me. And some, because I was in an environment that just didn't really support focusing on those things. So there I was, and of course, You know, having turned away from most of the things I really loved, I was not feeling so great in my life. Makes sense. Yeah. Yeah. And so I was going through that and then when I started coaching, which I really started doing just to kind of be in that personal growth world in some way, again, I found so many of the women I was coaching were in the same place. And so the, the problem for me was always like the problem that I was seeing was always a problem of kind of, um, why do we turn away from our authentic selves and why do we turn away from the things that bring us most alive? And I would say those are both spiritual problems, you know, and. And then the work to take us back is really spiritual work, too. I've really feeling inward to who, who am I really meant to become? Who was I created to be that maybe is not the most convenient conformance thing and reclaiming that. And it kind of took on that shell of a women's leadership book and playing bag, but it always had a spiritual core for me. And I think the work really is, you know, it's really soul work in a lot of ways. Mel: Um, you mentioned, you mentioned like at the beginning, and I think this kind of connects in with what you're saying is that you've been. You said something to bite your work has maybe moved from the self-actualization space to connection. I'm really curious about what you see as different than that. Um, what has brought you on that kind of trajectory to yeah. Move to that Tara: mantra? Yeah. Yeah. And I do, I think, you know, sometimes, um, th there's a, there's a passage, um, in the old Testament where, when, when God calls Abraham, God says, go for, go forth, leave, basically leave your parents' home and go forth to the new land that I will show you. And that energy of go forth is kind of how I think of the energy of self-actualization. It's like you're leaving home. Literally or psychologically you are going to a new place literally, or, or metaphorically. And you're in a process of becoming. And for me, there was a lot of, there's like a creative high to that. Ooh, you know, what's my new vision. What's my new chapter. What's my new project. And then let me create it and let me even kind of have a spiritual process around, like, let me pray for helping creating it and let me, you know, source energy that's larger than mine. And so I was really on that high for like 10 years of that cycle. And it was great, you know, like wrote some books, like transition my whole career, you know, created a lot of things. And then, um, When I became a mom, it was like, I could not find that channel. I couldn't find the radio frequency anymore. I was kind of like, what's the next vision? Where's my next cycle. And it was like, Matt, Matt, static. Like, no. And, Mel: um, except it sounds like, um, the same song from Paul patrol, all the frequencies. Right? Exactly. Like encounter songs. That's what it says. We don't talk about Bruno is what that noise is. A Tara: lot of theme song from pod patrol was going on. And, um, eventually like after, I don't know, a year or two into that, I finally had the thought like, oh, like you don't have to just, you can, like, you can pray about that. You can. You don't have to just feel, you know, abandoned by your spiritual life. Like you can turn this to your spiritual life. And so I kind of checked in like, why can't I find a vision? And I, I, I miss this old creative process. And really what I heard internally was this is not a time in your life about actualizing a vision. And this is a time about meeting. What is right in front of you right now. That's already here. It's not a time of becoming, it's not a go forth energy and is what I started to call like a right here energy, which is really very different. It's not about becoming it's about really, um, first I thought it was just about being present to what's here, but then I kinda got the memo. No, it's actually about like really. Seeing the glory of what's already here and seeing the beauty of what's already here, which I think being around children actually demands of us if we're going to treat them right. And so, um, and so now I feel like I am more in that different aspect of a spiritual life that is more the right here, energy than the Goforth energy. And it's more about finding the beauty and enoughness of what is, it's about relaxing over and over and over and over and over and over and over again with all the ways our mind would have us like get stressed. Um, and it's about kind of the power of like very simple acts of love, you know, like holding someone's hand, hugging them, being there with your body, having a soft tone in your voice. Um, there's immense power in. Which I think is it's a very overlooked form of power. Mel: Yeah. Wow. I know I'm getting emotional. Tara: I'm testing this out for my book proposal. Mel: We're like, well, yeah, that's so good. Gabby: That's so beautiful. I think I'm finding it very raw hearing you say these words, because I just did my inner mentor, future self visualization. And when I met her, one of the core parts of who she was was mom. And that is not a word, even though I am a mother. That is not a word that I, that was a very surprising word to, for me to hear coming up. And she was very confident in that role. And she had a piece in a serenity in that role that I long for in like in my current life. But I also, um, Mel: I Gabby: just found very moving and I would say. Mel: I Gabby: recently, when I did my own internal work, heard a very similar message to the one you just shared, which is like this season. And I've even shared this with melon, our conversations about what this next year looks like for me. Career-wise I just have felt this deep pole to focus on the here and now. And a big part of that pull is the motherhood aspect of who I am. And so I'm finding it so emotional hearing. And so let us just, just so raw. So thank you for sharing that. I really appreciate it. Thank you. Tara: Sharing that. It gives me chills when you're sharing that about your inner mentor and, um, there's something about, I mean, the word permission comes to mind, like, because I, I think there's something about. Giving ourselves permission to soften into that and to see all of that as a Nash that has really been taken away, even taken away, not just in the conversation about work, but even the conversation is about parenting can be. So, um, here's the method, here's the protocol, here's the 9,000 things. And, um, also neglecting that sort of the, the real simple fundaments of love and how we love with our bodies that, um, Are so important. Mel: Hey, everyone, we wanted to say a quick break in this episode and let you know that we have a Patriot on-page NAI. Uh, you know, we love, love, love doing this podcast each week and connected with you. 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I think, you know, What's coming to mind when I hear you talk about that stuff is like, there's, I'm obviously having like a physical reaction to, uh, cause it's so, so beautiful. And so move on. And I, you know, the, the women that I work with two or so tired, you know, like they're so tired, they're business women, they are entrepreneurs, they are creative, they are a Marriott of things. They are parents, they are, um, you know, wives and partners and all of that kind of stuff. And they're so tired. And I think what's, what's kind of coming up for me, is this, this conflict that we often have in this generation, I guess at this time in the world as well. Is that we can, we have all of these opportunities and we have all of these messages of fight our par and, um, and this is something that I'd love for. I'd love to hear you talk about it. Like just to kind of pick your brand, I guess, a bite, like holding the tension of ambition and that's softness and that kind of permission to. To not go forth, even though so many messages around us are like go forth, you know, like run the world and be a leader. And D do you know? But also I'm really freaking tired and you know, like, Nope, Nope. All these people have. Marketing this to be, or not getting up at three o'clock to give my kid a drink every night, you know, these systems around us don't help. Like what, you know, I guess I'm, I'm interested in your thoughts on that tension of, I have so many things I want to do, but also there's this, there's this seasons that I'm maybe wrestling her bottle in with where I want to do more, but I can't and why that's not my fault. That's the system's fault that I'm not like, do you know what I'm right. I'm Tara: spewing here. Yeah. I have so many thoughts. I have so many thoughts. Um, yeah. And yeah, there's so much in there. Um, so one of the, one of the new concepts that I've been kind of living with and working with in my own life is, well, it comes out of, um, one night when I was putting. My kids to bed. And, um, we, we sit with them until they fall asleep, which, you know, Mel: Sam sister. In fact, let me tell you that I spent probably seven minutes on a Marco polo to Gabby and our other Che friends today. Absolutely. Bitching about the fact that I have to do this every mother effing night, like I said, art a half process, and I know I should enjoy it and be gentle and Tara: exactly, exactly. It's like the simultaneous love and rage that it it's like bound up in. It is. Yeah. Yeah. It can be really trying. And you think, I mean, on paper, I'm kinda like, why is that so hard? I'm lying in the dark. I even can listen to a podcast. It's actually really hard to lie in the dark for a long time every night and then wake up again and stand up again and wait in the bubble. Anyway, one night I was in that and I was, you know, stewing and then sometimes I, you know, can get more Curt with the kids because I'm there, but I'm not really generously there. And, um, so, you know, I kinda said a little prayer, like. God helped me to not, you know, not just help me make it through this. Like what do I do? I mean, I was genuinely not genuine and clear. Like what do I do? I know it's not healthy for me to sit here. With this, you know, brewing frustration that I'm not even speaking to, I'm not acting on and just like pushing it down, pushing it down, pushing it down. I know that's not good. On the other hand, I also genuinely feel like I want to, I like the re I mean, I like being there until they fall asleep. In theory. Like I li I don't, I feel like I like that idea that they are falling asleep with the touch of another body and they, yeah. And I, you know, I know when I was grandpa's kid, like I was always worried, you know, I was scared of the dark, right. Intruder was going to come in through the window. And, you know, I, I liked that their companion in that, so I want to be there, but I was like, what do I do? You know? And, um, the thing that I heard back really clearly was, um, Tara love has to be love 360. It has to be love was all the way around to everyone in the room, including you like 360 degrees. And if it's love, then the other part that was a little bit of a doozy to receive, the other part was like, if it's not 360, it's not love something else. Maybe it's people pleasing, maybe it's guilt, maybe it's martyrdom, maybe it's fear. You know, maybe it's an old pattern, but it's not love. And what I got part of, what I got from that is like, we can define love in these acts of caregiving. You know, because I love you. I appealed of grapes because you don't want to, you know, because I love you, I'm shopping, but that's, that's a certain definition of love. But this other definition would say you can't really define love just by an act like that. Love is also like an energy it's a state of being. And the truth is when I, if I'm lying there in the bed stewing and my arm hurts because I'm like holding it like this to hold her hand in the way she wants, you know, am I in the state of love as an energetic state? I'm not, I'm really not. And so then the question became like, well, what, what would love 360 be? And so love 360 to me is also not, oh, I love myself in the morning by going to eat, you know, exercise class. And then I love you by doing bedtime. It has to be like in this moment, I am extending love to every being in this room, including me. And I'm being loving to every being in this room, including me. And what is that? And that is hard. Yeah. Mel: Are, do you have an answer for I'm on bad time tomorrow night? So, Tara: I mean, what happened for us in that situation was, I didn't know that night, I was like, I have no idea what love 360 is. I'm just kind of like, I'll just live with that for awhile. And then there was a day, like a few days later where suddenly our bedtime routine just seemed insane to me. Like it just seemed. Insanely hard and insanely for me insanely self-denying it was sort of like I had like a puritanical work ethic about our bedtime, you know, and like, and it was just like, you know, I'm just going to invite the kids to like lie down with me tonight in our bed. I just don't want to go do that work. And so I was just like, you guys can sleep in here tonight. We all lay down together. We all fell asleep together. It was so chill. I didn't have to wait for them. I was asleep by like 8 45 and you know, often shipper and early in the morning. And we did that for a while. And then of course, you know, eventually we grown ups got tired of that and we had to find the next thing, but, but it really was the answer then. And so with love 360, there is not an answer. I think the answer is individual and it changes in each situation, of course. Um, but the point. Is to ask the, to ask the question and find your answer. And I think this is much better advice for caregivers, then put your own oxygen mask on first grade, which I think is absurd because, you know, especially young kids, but also if you're caring for an elderly parent, the very nature of that experience is that your oxygen mask and there's, we can all mixed up. Yes. And their oxygen mask is not going to wait until you're, you know, that's just not what it is. And so rather than this delusion of I'm supposed to fill my cup first, which I think was impossible. I think a better question is really like, how, how do we do love 360 in this situation? Mel: I'm so, so happy to hear you. Talk about this. Um, and it feels, it feels really like spooky in a way that this is all like stuff that you and I have talked about Gabby in like the last 24 hours, really. Um, and I ha I have a friend who. Um, she's, uh, an unschooler. Um, and like, she's, I mean, she's incredible the kind of the way that she has chosen her and her partner have chosen to parent their children. And, um, but she often talks about this idea of having sites of mutual. What is it? Sites of mutual affection, um, with her kids. So like coming like actively co actively coming up with places that are love 360, we serve everyone. I mean, it's golden. Isn't that whenever that happens, you know, like we have just recently started this routine of on a Sunday. We go to the swimming pool at the local leisure center and everybody wins. Like everybody wins. It's not just like, okay, I'm going to take him down for Keck around on the rugby pitch with, you know, for a while you can take her to the mall and blah, blah, blah. You know, it's like. We all get to go and we all have fun and Dave will watch the kids for a bit while I do some lengths and move my body and then we'll switch it up. And everybody, like, we come home tired and happy and Tara: everybody wins. Yeah. That's a great example of it. Yeah. Yeah. I Mel: mean, there's not, I mean, this just isn't possible all the time, but to ask the question, like you said is off, you know, I think we often think that there's never an answer before we even ask Tara: the question. Exactly. And sometimes it's small shifts. It's like, yeah, I still need to drive the carpool, but I'm going to change the music or I'm going to have my specialty with me or like, you know, it doesn't always have to be major. Yeah, Gabby: yeah, yeah. Oh man. Mel: That's so good. Yeah. This is what I really love. And I think this is what I was drawn to your teaching on your, your leader. On is that it has always felt a little bit like subversive in a way. You'd probably know this about yourself. Tara: That's my compliments. So thank you. Mel: It is, it's always like everybody is saying this, but what am I this? Yeah, Tara: I took a personality test once or some kind of, it was some kind of like work strengths test. It wasn't, it wasn't StrengthsFinder, but it was like a more, a one that had had a brief moment. And, um, It would tell you you're like two top archetypes or something like that. And mine was like, it was like the rebel and the prestige. So it was like I'm to bend by all measures. But I also want to like challenge the, I was just like, this explains like so much like exhaustion and like, and like why everything is like hard. It's like, I want, it's like, I want to go to the top university program so I can like reject it while I'm Mel: really Tara: thinking controversial, but my citations will be impeccable and like, Mel: and you'll get Tara: Y what, what do you feel like is the source of the exhaustion for the mom? Like, is it, is it there. Aren't carrying their weight is that they're just working moms and it's is it? And how much of it is the way we're holding? Like how much of it is the internal side of how we're holding parenthood and our work, or how much of it is just the external, Mel: oh man, I feel like there's so many, uh, you know, rabbit, rabbit holes we could get into of ways aren't on reasons why these women, um, you know, including ourselves feel so tired, but you know, there's definitely still lots of imbalances and relationships and who's, who's doing what and all that kind of stuff. Um, I think the. The childcare, uh, responsibilities, you know, there's this women, my age are feeling this real pinch between like they're stuck in this. We have children that need our care and attention. And then we also have like aging parents, you know, and there's, so there's this kind of pinch in the middle where it feels quite frantic. I think the tiredness probably does come really internally from. The idea of being sold this like feminist lie of you can do all of the things, like go do it, but also there's no money to pay people, to look after your children. And also you're not a good mom, if you do that. And also, um, you know, like women have such a harder time doing those things from the get-go and yeah. I mean, you know, all of this stuff. Yeah. So there's just, there's lots of, lots of those bottles. Um, practically I think, and. Um, and just, yeah, internally, definitely. That's that is tough before Gabby: you've even gotten to your inner critic, those are the external issues. And then you have to come inside and deal with yourself Mel: as well. Absolutely. I know. Totally. Yeah. Yeah. So I don't, I don't know. I don't know that's but I think that, you know, the stuff that for me, like the stuff that you have taught around intuition, And slowness, like, there's something, and this is what I said, this is what I mean by some verses. So this is why I have all of the, all of the kind of shiny objects that for me as a coach, someone who works in the kind of female leadership failed, um, for all of the thought leaders, this is not me just trying to stroke your ego loads today, by the way, even though it feels a little bit like that, but I'm not above it. Um, I think your, your consistency to like take such a steadiness, like T there's such a steadiness to your work. And I don't that I trust it. I trust what you're saying. I trust that you are, um, that you have given depth. And thought to your work that that really makes me trust it. And because I think we all are, I mean, we're all, you know, liable to look at the shiny new celebrity thinker of things, or then the new kind of boss, bam on the scene and all of that thinking. And, um, but I know that the stuff that you teach it, it is, it crosses all areas of life and it, when it works to help women tune back into themselves, um, I don't think that I don't think I can ever imagine a time where that won't be right and true. Um, an important. Mm. Tara: Hmm, thank you. Yeah. Mel: Um, I had a, I had a juicy little question and, you know, you talked a lot about connection and connection back to self and connection with others parenthood globally. I, I also really, I really appreciate your thoughts on, um, how we operate in the world towards each other. Uh, and I love that, you know, in a world full of personal development gurus who are very, all the way itself, like we've talked about, I love that you're, you know, you're, you're like kind of shines in and night. Um, and I just wonder, like what, what have been your observations over the last two years about how. This is, so this is getting to be a big question, but how humanity has like navigated this? Like, are we, are we screwed or like, are we Tara: closer together? Are we, Mel: what are your, what's your hot tick? Like where are you pretty set with all of this stuff? That kind of polarization of things, the connection pace. Tara: Yeah. Well, I guess I'd say, I'd say a couple of things. I think that the mental health of Americans, I'm going to just speak to our American context and then people can extrapolate. Um, I think the mental health of Americans is not good and, you know, we are. A country with a lot of unprocessed trauma, um, of all kinds. And we are still, and I think this is true of many Western industrialized cultures. Like we are still many of us being raised in, um, environments that are pretty emotionally wounding. And so we come into adulthood with a lot of rage that is ready to be misplaced, um, with a kind of vulnerability to falling into attack and defend as our primary stance. And I think just in the past few years, we've seen more of that bubble to the surface. It's not that it wasn't there before, but it's found more political outlets. It's found more political validation. And then on top of that, I think. Social media, um, allows a kind of dehumanization in how we talk to each other. And it's just, it's just a place where people just dump their crazy residual, you know, emotional stuff without the consequences that you'd have. If you were doing that in your town square, you know, it's, that's why it's not just the same as the town square. So I think those things have, have really contributed, um, on the other side of the coin, I think that the pandemic has been. Um, sort of sobering for many people and like a settling of some of our like general American frenzy and like misplaced idealism and selfish. And it, you know, like I think I just see in my, like, when people show up for our gatherings, I, you know, I have been saying people are raw and ready. Like they're more emotionally raw, but they're also ready for deeper conversations. And so I think that's good, you know? Hm. Yeah. Mel: Oh, Gabby: I mean, I definitely resonate with that raw and ready. Like my, my perpetual state Mel: these days, there's just so much, there's just so much fear and that fear is just so easily manipulated. Metastasized and brought to you, you know? Yeah. Manipulated, I guess is probably the word I would strongly feel is, you know, um, you know, I wonder how do we get back? How do we get back from here? Or are we never coming back? We're just going to create something new. Like what kind of like, what's your hope that that is the sifting that we can get out of this? You know, like if Tara: the, well, when, when direction, maybe I'll take that. And I know, cause you had also asked about like, what's my most unpopular opinion, which is, I love that question. Um, and so I'll kind of that that really goes with this question. Um, You know, to, to have the kind of informative mantras for me in parenting. Um, one comes from a book called parenting without power struggles, um, by Susan stifled men. And. She says, whenever your kid is doing something that bothers you, um, tell yourself, you know, okay, whatever they're doing, it makes perfect sense. And then brainstorm all their reasons why it makes perfect sense. And it's such a great mental flip, you know, and the first time I practiced it, it was like, my son was maybe one and he hated getting his diaper changed. And like, wouldn't go up on the table and was squirming and like always trying to Flink himself off. And I was kind of getting into the, like, he needs to get it, like we need to change his diaper and edit, you know, and then I was just like, okay, let's just try this practice, like, okay. So it makes perfect sense that he hates changing table. You know, why does it make perfect sense? Oh, suddenly I saw the situation totally differently. Like I just interrupted him from playing on the floor. Like he doesn't know he needs to get a diaper change. He doesn't know he's going to get a rash. Also like changing tables are weird, like for how long in human evolution have like toddlers been up on a small rectangle, like four feet off the ground, like one second, a human evolution, you know, like his body's probably so confused why he can't explore. And so then it was like, it was really easy to handle that differently. So it's easy to see that maybe sometimes with a one-year-old, but I really think that's true. We could say that of all adult behavior always makes perfect sense. Um, and, and it's kind of amazing how much we've tried to ignore that. And instead instead, say, you're crazy, fuck up random, come on and get Mel: us together. Tara: We would say people are you don't, you know, and, and really, instead of saying, how does this make perfect sense? And similarly, in, in another program that my kids did, um, when they were a little bit older, They had one of their guidelines was, um, we believe all, all disruptive behavior is either developmentally appropriate or it's the expression of an unmet need. And I would say that's also true of adults. All disruptive behavior is an expression of an unmet need. Putin had some major unmet needs at some point along the way. And, um, And I really believe, and this is where my most unpopular opinion. I really believe there are no bad guys that, um, hurt people, hurt people, and that that's what we're dealing with. And we need to treat humans accordingly, um, when those hurts are happening, when they're burgeoning. Um, so that we don't get into situations where people's unmet needs and hurt is so dangerous for the rest of the world. Can I find when I share that there's really varying degrees of openness to it. Sometimes people are open it for a lot of people that still really touches a nerve to say, well, what about accountability? And you're telling me they, people can do whatever they want. And it's really not about that at all. It's about being wise about what's going on so that we can actually respond in a way that is useful because we don't know how to respond when people are doing acts of harm. Now we do not know how to respond in a way that prevents further harm or really even remedies the harm they've done. Yeah. Yeah. Gabby: I wonder if, and I know we're kind of coming to the end of our time here, but I wonder if you have any advice where you could speak to, so yes, I agree with all of that 100% actually, and I do think hurt people, hurt people. But when people are acting out, do you have any practices that you use yourself or how you, you know, guard yourself in the midst of being hurt or the midst of being a victim of Ms. You know, people have been misbehaving, Tara: right? Yeah. Cause we still need to have love 360 and that will include, you know, and I think love 360 is a good practice for figuring out like what, you know, cause sometimes when you're living with someone with bad behavior, we can be really focused on, well, what's the loving response to them. Sure. Or we can just kind of say, just screw you, but we're not often like what's really love 360. Um, so I think that's part of that. I think, um, there's I think generally the process I like to use is first, you know, just to feel your feelings about. Situation and hurt and get clear about them and like really let yourself be in that then to do your journaling, or you're talking with a therapist or coach or whatever about like, how does that person's behavior make perfect sense, given where they're coming from? What are the unmet needs? Not only so that you are not triggered in the same way by the behavior. So you get, you get where it's coming from in them, you know, why it's not personal in some sense. And then the third you have to really ask, you know, what would it look like to love myself impeccably in this situation? And what's the boundary or the words or the request or the chain. And then, um, sometimes we need help having the courage to implement that there's like skill development for ourselves. And then from there you can, you know, wish yourself in the other party. Well, Hmm. Gabby: Hmm. I feel like I need to listen back to this podcast and take notes and, you know, actually go through that Mel: because hard to like, not just be like, feeling like a listener. I Gabby: know, I know like, wait, where are the interviews? Um, yeah, that's so good. Well, we really want to respect your time. Um, and you've already answered one of our, uh, quick fire questions that we ask at the end of every interview. Um, which is your most unpopular opinion. Um, we're going to kind of rattle through the rest of these, um, at the end, I would love to, if you have anything you would like to share with our audience, like books or courses or anything you'd like to share. We'd love to hear that, so, okay. And where to find you on social media. Um, alright. What is a song or artist you go to these days Mel: to get home? Tara: Oh, yeah. I saw that question. Um, I don't really listen to any music to get hyped up. Mel: All right. Now let's just spot on my drink. Of course. You don't have anything to say about what do you listen to, to get to regulate to regulate, Tara: right, right, right, right. I listened to, I like like calm piano stations, like random ones I find on my phone, but I also like, um, If people can go to the open floor, um, I think it's the open floor dance or something.com, which is, that's like a dance practice that I do. And you can, so I like to listen to their playlist for dancing. Mel: Have you ever, have you ever done Coya Tara: yes. Yes. I know. I know a little bit about quite yet. And yeah, Mel: Matt, I love Coya so much. Yeah. So much good stuff out there. I mean, um, of course you don't listen to music to get hyped up, but after the conversation, that feels really good. Our fist. No, Tara: no, not at all. Not at all. I thought it was a good question. I just don't really have a good answer for it. Mel: Okay. The best food that you've had in the last week or so Tara: best food. I'm really into decaf, oat milk lattes. There's a great coffee company here called Pete's in the San Francisco area that just have so much love and respect for them. So one of their oatmeal glass days is really good. Mel: Um, I remember like my one cop, like when I was pregnant, it was like, I had one, one coffee then, and then I transitioned back into life after pregnancy. I only had one coffee a day cause I knew that it was actually really good for me. And so I really see ever Tara: it's such a nice sabering ritual. Absolutely is. Mel: Okay. Um, last question. Do you have any words of wisdom or advice for what you do when you've given something your best effort and it doesn't quite turn out like you'd hope. Tara: Um, yeah, I mean, in our house, we, we really like to say, we just, you have no idea what's good and bad. In most cases, it usually is not what w what we deem good and bad is usually not a few years later what we would say as good and bad, you know? Um, so I try to stay pretty humble about my hopes. And in fact, like I never pray for a specific outcome. I only pray like, whatever is meant to happen. May it happen? Whatever the larger will is. So that kind of prevents me from having a specific hope, you know, with any project. Like, I would never, I would not set myself up by being like, I hope, you know, this many women. Or, sorry, I hope I would just say, I hope, you know, or, you know, may God's will be done in this situation basically, or some form of whatever language of that works for people. So then that kind of usually works out. Yeah, Mel: yeah. Yeah. Gabby: I love that so Mel: much. Well, Gabby: thank you for joining us today. Uh, where can people find you online and, um, yeah, if people want to sign up for courses, where do they go? Tara: Yeah, so Tara moore.com T a R a M O H R. And then yeah, you can find out about our courses there and sign up if you want to be on the early. Notice list for any of them. And then also there's regular writings. And we do do every Sunday, we do a free open kind of, um, hour of conversation and journaling, and it's like a workshop style hour. Um, that's open to everyone. So you can learn more about those there too. And look forward to meeting some people from your audience. I bet Mel: we'll have a feel, have a little influx of Sunday. Um, it's always my intention to be there, but the time difference, doesn't always, I get it. I'm damn a lengths, my mood, um, sorry. We only have so many sites of mutual affection. Um, but yeah, really. And truly thank you so much for giving us your Friday. Well, I mean it's Friday, Friday, is it. It's a sacred day for me. Um, and I really appreciate spending time with you today. I respect you and I am grateful for. Yeah. So much. Tara: Thanks to both of you. Thank you for all the support today and the connection. Mel: Yeah. Yeah. We're excited to see what, what comes what's birthed next from Tara Moore. Thank you so so much. Thanks everybody. We'll see you next week. Gabby: Thank you so, so much for listening to this week's episode of the making and effort podcast, it feels like such an honor to get to connect with you all every week like this. And we just want to say a massive thanks. You can always get in touch with. At our email address, which is hello@makinganeffortpodcast.com or you can get in touch with us individually on our Instagram accounts. In our DMS, you can get in touch with Mel at Mel logins, or you can get in touch with me at gab Llewellyn. And if you're feeling really generous today, we would be so grateful if you took the time to like, and subscribe and maybe even leave a review and maybe even share this episode with your friends on your social media. Um, those kinds of things go such a long way for podcasters like us. And, uh, it would be such an honor to receive that from you. So thank you. And we will talk to you next week. Bye.
