Episode 53: Critical Thinking & Cancel Culture

Ok, we're for sure going to get things wrong in this conversation because it's a delicate one, but we thought it was worth chatting a little bit about what it means to be a critical thinker these days. Can you call people to accountability without shame? Is cancel culture ruining our ability to handle difference maturely? Lots to think about here so come join us for a conversation!

>>> Click here to read the computer generated transcript (note that the transcript isn't perfect)

Gabby: Welcome to the making an effort podcast, the podcast, where you get to sit in on a conversation between two friends, discussing all the things they make an effort with and some of the things they don't. And this week we are talking about critical thinking. It's kind of a big topic. Um, we're talking about it in the sense of just having differing opinions, how to think critically about information we receive online and other places, and then how to hold that intention with what you, what your convictions are and how you process that in the world. And I just think this is a topic. We've experienced and our own lives. Um, just being super important within our relationships with people. And just the more we kind of get more information and this information age, it is super important to talk about how we process that information, what we do with it. And. How to just think for our, continue to think for ourselves too. Um, I feel like I do need to apologize at the top of this episode because there has been a time zone change. So I feel very grumpy. It's Mel: like some metal of the Knights, Gabby: legit. This Mel: is super, I actually, it feels really cruel every time we'd get on the zoom call to record this podcast. I just like, I feel guilty now. Gabby: It's actually fine because it's Mel: only, I do keep checking and checking them with Gabby. And like, is this still working for you? Are you still okay to do this at this time? You're growing two human bodies inside your body. I mean, newsflash for anyone who didn't catch Gabby's pregnancy reveal. Yes. She's still growing twins. Yeah. Gabby: No, follow me on Instagram. I'm having twins this year. Yeah. But no, I actually do feel fine and maybe there'll be. A time where we need to switch it up, but 6:00 AM is early, but it's not like middle of the night. This because of the time zone change feels a little bit like the middle of the night. So I don't bring my, a game to this chat. I just apologize at the top of this episode, I mean, that's absolutely fine. I mean, Mel: we couldn't have picked a more nuanced topic to try no Gabby: this, I mean, Mel: we've had this, you're like, I'm ready for this with her eyes off clothes that are dressed and going. Um, we have had this topic on our list of things that we wanted to talk about for, I would say like a good six months, we've kind of every week we've kind of texted back and forth. Like, what should we talk about this week? What do you want to do on a podcast? Which shows the level of planning that we put into pre pre plod on each episode. But yeah. Each time, you know, this comes up on the list and we go, no, no, no, no, let's not do that one yet. Not let's not do that just yet. Um, and that in itself is very, it's very matter big, uh, that response, because I think even talking about critical thinking and for me, this ties into, um, council culture, um, it ties into, um, you know, like our, the moral superiority of social media and stuff like that, um, is so loaded. And I think naturally you and I have wanted to avoid any potential. Opportunity to say something wrong or Gabby: which is why we have a podcast, plenty of opportunities to say things wrong all the time. Mel: Yeah. Or like be critiqued or have anyone critically think about us. And then Gabby: I know turn off your faculties and sit back and enjoy. Mel: Yeah. For real. Um, so the fact that we've avoided this for as long as we have, but really want to talk about it says Gabby: so much. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think it shows up enough relationally for all of us in this day and age that it is worth talking about. And you know, a big theme of this podcast in general is friendship and relationships. And so it feels like an aspect of how we interact with people. How we interact with information that we're absorbing impacts how we interact with people period. And so it feels worth talking about, not that I have a ton of really intelligent things to say about it, but I just want to talk about like, especially these last few years have, when we know when we've had a pandemic, people are on their phones all the time. I know I was, if you weren't good job, um, especially in 2020 though, like you're on your phone all the time. Cause it's like your only portal to the world and you're just consuming all this information and it makes an impact. And you have nowhere else to talk. No one, not to talk about it with in real time. No one to process that with just like a deepening, uh, you know, echo chamber. Yeah. Of whatever side of the internet you find yourself on. Mel: Yeah. But I don't feel like I was just going to ask, you know, when, when did you kind of notice that there was such a deficit of like that we were really in deficit of, of being able to critically think, like, I feel like 20, 20 was the, it probably, I mean, obviously was long before that we were kind of dwindling and our capacity and ability to critically think, but 2020, and definitely the pandemic, I think kind of burgeoned. Yeah. This sense. Right. I was like all of a sudden. All of a sudden, everything is a moral decision and S right. F like everything, whether you leave your house or not is a moral decision, whether you show, you know, like you show up in your business and try and continue working is a moral decision. Like, so in the minutia of life, there was, there was so much of that going on. And then so much of that being shared yeah. That, you know, that it felt like all of a sudden, and then the information we were getting a bite, this virus and how we should all live and what we should be doing to support each other, respect each other. Um, and then what does, you know, how we make decisions? I feel like that was like a re it was like, kind of. Worth where things just burgeoned too. You know what I Gabby: mean? Totally, totally. Well, it was a yeah. Mel: Yeah. Highway Homer uptake in an information. And then what we're doing with that information was all of a sudden felt like life or death. Gabby: Yeah. Yes. And it was positioned like that. And to be honest, like we didn't have enough information to know whether or not that was true or not at the time, you know, especially at the beginning of the pandemic where like it could actually be life or death. Um, and for some people, yeah, it w it wasn't a good outcome. And so it makes all of these things super sensitive, um, off the bat. But I do think the very. Here's one thing I'll say so apart from the pandemic, apart from social media, my first experience with critical thinking and what I guess, I mean by that very specifically is like being, having my worldview. Challenged in a significant way. Like I have a couple very, very vivid memories of my time in college. Um, that stand out to me. So they're very short stories, but I will share them because I think they kind of provide a good context and also like they didn't happen on social media. And I think that is that's helpful. You factor in all of this, but I remember my freshman year, you had to, you know, I was, did a liberal arts degree, um, and the way it worked in my colleges before you enrolled or applied to the journalism program within our university, you did do two years of, uh, just. Random classes. So I took a us history class. I was like, what the heck? I'll do it. I love history. Um, and I have a very, very vivid memory of sitting in a lecture hall. And I know exactly where I was in the room where I heard for the first time that this is so embarrassing, but I'll just say did it her for the first time that Christopher Columbus. Was not like maybe the best guy and, uh, committed genocide on the native people of the Americas. And it was one of those moments where it wasn't like I had like huge, like major stakes in the PR of Christopher Columbus. It was just a, it was just Mel: at first, like in middle of the night, you have, you have woken right up and you're on form. Gabby: Keep her letter. All right, here we go. I'm not even doing this on copy. This is just all H2O baby in this cup right here. You're doing so Mel: good. This is a sobriety. Gabby: Give me a shot of tequila. Okay. Uh, Um, yeah, not, you have no stakes, the stakes Columbus. I Mel: feel like that's a highlight already. Gabby: Quote, me guys. You are allowed to quote me on that. That won't be disinflation, go for it. Uh, and, but I remember being like really challenged by that because it really, it was challenging the systems that had educated me up until that point, which I trusted pretty implicitly. Cause I was 19. And um, you know, I remember being like, but when the, you know, they, they laid out the facts of what happened. I was like, yeah, I don't know how else you could interpret that. That is genocide. Uh, and so that's one, that's one. The other one is some I'm for the, those of you who are just tuning in, you might not know this about me. My parents were humanitarian aid workers growing up. We were in central Asia and overall, I would say it was a very positive experience for us. Um, and from what I know positive experience from our, our friends that we talked to you back there, positive experience for our community there as well. However, I remember being in a, this is like later on in my college years, I took a class on, uh, humanitarian, uh, communications, I think. And we learned about how a lot of humanitarian aid, um, and a lot of missionary work is also a form of call, like colonization. And that was that one struck close to the bone because I had a very personal story about that. My parents were Christians, you know, that was something that they shared with people while they were there. And that was like a huge moment for me personally of, oh, wow. Maybe there are multiple sides of this story that I'm not aware of yet. And I remember sitting with when to Mel: that, or did you, did you feel like, were you defensive? Like, were you open? Like what was the feeling? Gabby: So. And the moment I felt really ashamed because they were talking about it very negatively. And I remember just like wanting to be like, you know, just shrink into a corner of the lecture room and not I had come into this class thinking I was going to have so much to community contribute to like, especially in like your, the other way it worked in my school. And I think a lot of liberal arts schools, uh, usually by the time you're in your like junior and senior years, that your classroom sizes shrink down from like 200 people to, you know, 20 or sometimes even less than that. So it is like a lot more discussion-based you get to know your classmates really well. And I remember thinking I was going to have so much to contribute chat wise to these, these lectures and just feeling automatically like, Nope, no one can know this about me. Like this is so embarrassing. Um, and. Uh, at the same time, I don't think I was mature enough at the time to realize like, you know, I can hold the, all these things intention. Right. And I actually, I still think I do have an important story to share, um, because it's my perspective and people's perspectives do matter. You know, they come, they provide a complete story if we're open to hearing them. Uh, but that is a second, the second big moment I had in school. And I think where I'm going with this and why I think those stories are good. Examples is I think this is happening to us on micro levels all the time on social media, but we. We are expected to have immediate responses that are like very well thought through and well-researched and nuanced and Mel: we're so, and to get it right and to get it right. I made Gabby: exactly. And instead of having like a semester to process through some of this stuff in private and with like a small group of people and in a way that it's not going to be publicly recorded forever on the internet, you know, we we're thrown into the deep end and we don't have the skills because why would we to navigate that? Mel: Of course. Yeah. It's a huge, like, especially for, I think our generation and our, maybe our parents' generation, it's a huge deficit because we didn't have to think critically. We were, we were really kind of. We were only exposed to a few different sites, like maybe two different sides of something F that. And so we kind of were cuddled and so many ways in, in the big things about what, what to think and what to feel. And, you know, like, even when I think about the history of Northern Ireland, you know? Yeah. Just as you were talking, I was like, here we are, you know, here we are. Um, and that kind of polarize and that there is between Protestants and Catholics historically in this country. And it's so, you know, like it's just that we, when we grew up, as we grew up, I grew up in, um, a Protestant community. We weren't really involved in like the loyalist community, but we're definitely we're Protestant. Um, You know, it was, it was like, I didn't know any Catholic people at all. Like I just didn't really know any Catholics and, you know, there's maybe like one or two Catholic kids at our school and everybody knew who they were. And it was really, it was kind of, it was just a weird thing. Um, you know, so, but I had, no, I don't understand it of the whole picture of things. The, the levels of nuance, the kind of shared history between both sides of this conflict and, uh, you know, all of that stuff, you know, when you're only really exposed to, or have access to information about one side of something, the ability to be a critical thinker is so, uh, it's just so lacking, you know, and that's, you know, from outside of social media and UWorld today, like you shared your, your examples. That's when that kind of came to mind for me was that side of like, Wow. I don't, I don't think that it's possible for me to have, um, a full, uh, fully formed, like decision made about the, the situation of between Protestants and Catholics in Northern Ireland anymore. There's just, it's just not possible. Um, there's too much nuance, you know, you know what I mean? Right. Oh, Gabby: absolutely. Mel: It's it's wild. And yet then now we have all of these enormous moral and justice issues, um, kind of spewed out every single day. And we, we are part of that because we choose to follow who we follow on social media and tech in whatever media we take in and the. And the anticipation is that we should have a formed opinion on it. Yeah, yeah. Right out of the gate. And there's so little room for getting things wrong. You know, I was having this, this conversation with a group of women that I'm coaching at the minutes, especially because of, you know, the war that's happening. And, um, and Ukraine at the minute. And we were, you know, a couple of the girls had been, had, had taken some action and beaten, um, raising some money through their, through their businesses for this like donations and using their premises as drop-off places, or like, um, organizing like a, like a supper club, um, where a hundred percent of the tickets are going to, it's amazing, um, directly to, uh, support Ukrainian people. But we were having this conversation about high. So many of us withhold, um, and aren't visible with our values and our opinions. And in these spaces around these kind of big issues, because council culture does it is there is no room for the nuance and critical thinking and questions at the minute around these, everyone is so art, ridged and hated and ready to like hold a account without any maturity attached to it. And that's the piece that I think is so I'm really interested in learning more about is harder. We, how do we be accountable for our thoughts and our actions? With some sense of maturity, because it's not mature for somebody to get something wrong because they don't know enough about it. And then, and then everyone turned against them. Like that's not mature way to Gabby: let Mel: people grow and evolve and learn Gabby: as it. Yeah. I mean, totally. And there's so many examples of this happening to people in the last few, like two years, especially I, one of the, one of the stories I think of most is do you remember when I think it was like the bass player for Mumford and sons tweeted about how he had read a book that was, I'm probably botching this story. You know, fact check me if I'm wrong. But he posts about having read a book that had some kind of like extremist Nazi English philosophies. And he said something like, oh, you know the writer. I mean, if I'm getting this wrong, please, correct me. You know, the writer either made like, had some good arguments, not as an, he agreed with his, his conclusions, but he found his writing persuasive because those are two different things, right. It's one thing to find someone, a good communicator and persuasive, and it's another thing to ultimately say. Yep. And now I agree with them versus, and I don't agree with their conclusion. So, you know, there, which we don't have that kind of nuance anymore, but he got completely. Uh, completely eviscerated on Twitter for, for that, which in some ways I'm kind of like, maybe you should have just kept that one to yourself in this day and age, and here's Mel: the thing. Right. So using this example, so he posted, yeah. Did I get Gabby: it Mel: right? Yeah. You almost, you almost did. It might. And this is why this is why it's important. Yeah. To like Gabby: give the facts. Yes, exactly. Mel: So what he said was he tweeted about this like conservative American journalists, but, um, basically he was critiquing the Antifa movement. Right. And the guy from Mumford and sons tweeted finally had the time to read your important book, your breath mom. Hmm. Okay. Okay. So. At first, when I first read those words finally had the time to read your important book. You're a brave man. I'm like, he's praising some sort of right wing Gabby: agitator, right? Yeah. Mel: This, you know, he should be counseled that's in my immediate, like not cannot counsel, he's a public figure. He should be, he should be accountable. He shouldn't be saying to promoting, uh, such divisive, often violent thought leaders. Right. So immediately in my, as I'm reading that in real time on this podcast, I'm like, fuck this guy, like you can't, he can't say that. And then I read it again. Finally had the time to read your important book. You're a brave mom that can be read in so many different ways. Totally. Right. Like this, could it be, could it be true that this is an important book? It doesn't say that it's correct. And that, yeah. And also Colin's on one breath might not mean what we mean. Well, our interpretation of brave is maybe I'm clutching here, but you know what I mean? Yes. When I'm getting Gabby: totally, that is what he would came back and eventually said to all of the people on Twitter was like, Hey, I wasn't like supporting this. I just, I wanted to be informed about what were some of the thought, like discussions happening around this, this topic. So I read this book. Yes. Which, which I'm like, oh, I actually really, I admire doing your research and hearing, like being. Educating yourself on all the different thought processes that are out there, even if you don't agree with them, you know, that that is an important thing to do. And something that, so few of us do, but, and he tried, I mean, ultimately I think the story was that he tried to stay in the band and, you know, the guys like us in the band, we supported him as their friend. Um, but he just was like the scrutiny and like the, it was just too much. So he had to quit and he was like, I just got too much hate mail. I couldn't backpedal it. And I mean, yeah, maybe he did backpedal and he did like the guy and he didn't know it was going to be picked up. I don't know. I that's not what he said. Um, we, we can't know that, but I, I always think of that example when I think of people. Like engaging with some of those, like more, I don't know. I don't know. What's the type. What is the word? What are the words I'm looking for ML? Like, I don't know. Mel: Go ahead. I don't know, but I've, but there's a book that Dave read. I maybe mentioned this, so a good while ago on the podcast, but Dave read this book. I haven't read it, but I can. I know what it's the premise of it is, but it's called. So you've been publicly shamed by Jon Ronson. I don't know if you've heard of this or not, but it's like, he re he re he wrote it like, um, um, it was probably like seven years ago. Um, and so it kind of explores the, this emergence of public shamming on the internet. Um, you know, like this idea of like, At ban this new phenomenon that we gang up on people I'm forgetting things wrong. And he's, so he's talked, he talks in a bite, the girl, he tweeted something, as she got on a flight, it was something controversial. She tweeted when she got, she got on a flight and what, and it was like an overnight flight to the other side of the world or something. And when, and when she got off the plan, she had lost her job and she had like death threats. Gabby: Oh my gosh. So her, Mel: yeah. So her whole reputation was like, absolutely. Yeah. Ruined every, like her, her life was in tatters. Yeah. In one tweet as she got, you know, I can't remember. What exactly it was, but that book is really a really good insight. Dave said, and T this idea of like, um, public shaming, you know, and I guess we all know what, what the outcome of sham often is. Right. It's more sham, um, rage and defiance, and you know, what happens when you feel shared? Gabby: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Well, Mel: and it doesn't, it doesn't usually give us any, it doesn't produce any kind of meaningful or long lasting, um, I guess reparation. Yeah. And in a lot of ways, it's kind of, you're kind of bullied into change rather than understanding why change is necessary. And then, um, you know, coming up, coming out that. Yeah. A place of empathy and yeah, I have, I have a lot of, a lot of thoughts running through my head right now that I'm struggling to like, um, to form them helpfully, but this really ties into like emotion and privilege and, you know, accountability and levels of accountability that are necessary for like, you know, plebs like you and Mae or for someone who has taken and, and used a public mantle, you know, like the level of accountability for them should be higher if they're willing to put themselves out there. And I guess, do you think that's true? I'm just, I'm thinking I lied here. Is that true? Well, should that be, Gabby: yeah, I mean, I do think that. If you, the more people who follow you, I would hope you would just be conscious of that. And like, not in a begging up kind of a way, but just, okay. I've got a lot of people here. I'm just gonna, I'm just going to think through some of the things I'm putting out there. Cause it's so easy to hit, publish on anything on the internet. I mean, and I think that was part of our generation, you know, we've grown up with social media and. And the internet. And so you just like, we know our way around it. We can publish anything we do all the time. Like, I can't tell you how many online blogs and journals and Zynga's and live journals. And, you know, like I have so many thoughts on the internet and not all of them are good. It's Mel: like, I don't stand Gabby: by them all anymore. Well, I even, like, I think of like, and I, I, yeah, to this day, like, I'm sure I'll look back and be like, oh my gosh, that was so cringe. Mel: Um, a hundred percent. But Gabby: I think that's the part where there's a bit of a breakdown in how we approach this. Right? So like before social media, if say you wanted to say something really controversial, you would have to publish it in a book or like a magazine, which would require setting with it. Interviewing people running it through a publisher, running it through an editor, having your friends read it, you know, there's so many stages for you to really concretely distill what it is you mean and what you're trying to communicate and decide if that's something you want to say at the end of the day versus now where we just like retweet stuff, we repost stuff, you know, where we have such accessibility to publishing, which on the one hand is amazing because it gives voice to a ton of people who wouldn't normally have agency or platform. Um, and those kinds of the politics of publishing. Uh, so it's great. But the flip side of that is also that. Anyone can say anything. Hey, Mel: everyone. We wanted to take a quick break in this episode and let you know that we have a Patreon Page now. Uh, you know, we love, love, love doing this podcast each week and connected with you and RPA drone page is a way for you to get to hang out with. Um, and for us all to be together even more and help us cover the cost of running the podcast. So we can keep our sponsored ads to a minimum it's just $5 or four pounds a month to access it. And we have some really exciting plans for spending more time with you guys there this year. So when you become a patron, you'll get access to our monthly, making an effort magazine where we're going to be sharing all of our best recommendations for food and books and TV and music and what we're wearing and all that good stuff. Uh, patron only extra video podcasts from us each month and an invitation to join us for annual making an effort, virtual cocktail party, where we get to hang out together and meet each other more. So if you want to join the making and effort gang, you can find a link to our patron and the show notes, or you can go to www.patreon.com forward slash making an effort podcast. Can't wait to see you inside. Gabby: So one of my favorite accounts to follow online right now is, uh, Sharon McMahon's she's in Minnesota and her Instagram handle is, uh, Sharon says so, and she is a. Like a poly side, government major. And she kind of took it on herself, like seeing the political division in the states and 2020, she got, and took it upon herself to like actually factually breakdown. Some of the stuff that was happening in the news, because for us in the states, like the news was basically opinion articles on both sides of the aisle, uh, and facts, you know, we're, I mean, still, still are to this day. A lot of the facts are just kind of spun to promote a certain outcome. So she kind of took it upon herself to be an impartial voice and explain things that were happening in government. There's a lot of crazy stuff that happened, um, that we had, like our generation hadn't seen. During, you know, president Trump's rate, uh, presidency, uh, rain, sorry, this is where I'm at. It's this is the five 30 brain you're getting it, his rain, his rain, what he thought, oh gosh, I see. I have been, I have been impacted by his PR, um, but you know, like impeachment what's actually happening, blah, blah. Anyway, she's really great about breaking the fat down the facts. And she did this thing recently. On her Instagram, because she's right now, she's kind of preaching against not preaching. She's teaching against the dangers of how easy it is to create fake information online. And so she, she posted this thing of a fake tweet from president Biden that she did in like two seconds with an app on her phone and re posted it and was like, you know, see, I did this in two minutes. Like you can create anything online and you can share it and you have enough if you have enough followers, like it can do some damage being her point. And I think that's the part of just, that's where it comes down to our responsibility, right? As consumers of all of this information, not only do we have the responsibility to, you know, Honor the platforms that we have, uh, all of us, even if you have like two followers, that's still a platform that you're responsible for. Uh, but also on the flip side of that, we have the responsibility to really sift through some of the information that we're consuming and fact check it and, you know, be like, okay, well that feels really, if you, if you're confronted with something on the internet that like really does something to you emotionally. I usually that's my first indicator personally, that I need to fact check something is if I feel really emotionally triggered by something that I've read, I'm like, okay, it's time to get more information about this before, because ' Mel: cause, what's the agenda here. Like why, why, why are, why is this been turned out for the purpose of emotionally stirring us? I just, this is the thing that I struggle with and this probably where I'm at at the minute and is actually a really dangerous place to be, I think is that we have been so misinformed. And so, and there's been so many opportunities for us to be manipulated by big media that I feel so distrusting of all of it. And that can actually, I need to be really careful with that for myself, that that can lead me to real apathy. Um, as in, well, I don't trust any of it, so nothing can, you know, this is, this is if I spiral, right. Like what is actually true? I, I'm not, I'm not going to really know what's actually true here, so I'm not going to care about anything. Yeah. I'm going to just get an, a guard myself because I don't want to fail embarrassed by getting it wrong or that I have sold myself out to something that isn't actually happening or isn't, you know, like I've made decisions based on things that aren't actually true. And I don't want to risk being wrong about that. Hello, any ground one. Um, and the risk of being wrong about that is too painful to like shaming. So I'm going to have to just sit back and do nothing like that is a real risk that apathy the distrust of a mistrust of media and not, and not really honing that mature, critical thinking through the lens I think of your values. Yes. Yeah, that gives, and so that's that's, to me, that's the kind of swerve out of apathy is, okay, am I the truth that we can't really trust anything? So what, what actually, what I, what does this actually brings me towards my values the most, and maybe that's a bit simplistic. Um, and, and people might critique that to that. But to me, that's the only true way of knowing how to discern sayings is, does this ma does this lead to the greater good for everybody? Does this make, um, the world more fair? Does this. Center other people and the greater good, rather than just me, I guess, is the lens. I don't know. Gabby: No, I think, I think a lot of people probably really resonate with that. You know, I think there's so much there's because there's so much opportunity for distrust, you just distrust at all. And I think that's a really, like, I think that that is a really common response. I even find it in with even within myself. And I'm just, I think I just, at the end of the day, I'm too nosy to not do some of that. Like, like I just live a little, like my any day, my Enneagram five wing is like, well, I need more information, so I'm going to fight it. But I mean, taking it out of a context of. Out of social media and the present day. Like, so the couple of things come to mind immediately, as you're saying that like one, when we don't allow people to be wrong about stuff, we actually stunt growth as a society longterm. And I think that's the thing that people maybe don't understand about. Mel: I'm worried about that actually worrying about that as our, as a culture that we have. No, I see this in, in the women that I work with and their businesses, they're afraid to like, have a launch that sucks or, and I'm like, it doesn't have to be perfect and good and a salad right out of the gate. We can get things wrong and learn because that's the only way we evolve. Gabby: Yeah. And I think, and sadly, sometimes it takes like, it really does take generation. Like waiting it through those generations of new thought processes to really get anywhere. Like I was talking about this with Chris recently, like, so my Christopher Columbus example, for example, you know, kids nowadays, aren't learning about Christopher Columbus, the way I learned about him. I mean, some of them are, but a lot of them are learning about him differently in the states. Then I learned about him as a kid, and that is part of that, that generational shift and you know, those. So like, so my ceiling is their floor. That's what they're learning in elementary school. What I learned in university is what they're learning in elementary school and it's going to continue like that. So if we don't allow people to get things wrong, to have. Grace-filled arenas to learn new things, then we're never going to grow as a larger society. And I think that's kind of, I think it's right to be afraid of that. And I honestly, my own, the only thing I can, the only solution to the IC is to just start being one of those grace-filled learning environments, like create your own environment and your own sphere of influence in real life and online. And I, I mean, I say this and I still get it wrong a lot on social media. A lot of the time I have lashed out about things emotionally that I regret like this week probably if I really sat down and thought about it. So I really hope that there's grace to get some of this stuff wrong occasionally because I know I need it. Um, And I think that, I think it makes sense to feel afraid about that, for sure. I don't know. Yeah. It just, Mel: I think there's something as well. And I'm thinking about it in terms of like, why we are so quickly able to access this outreach. Gabby: Yeah. Mel: And just this, like, what is it, what is it within us that has stored so much anger that night? That no, when people get it wrong, we feel like we have justification or it's, it's an opportunity for us to be, to like use up some of that and that way, um, I just find that really interesting, you know, like we obviously collectively have a lot of rage that we are. Work in three and don't, or don't know how to work three. And so we have, have seen that there's an opportunity to like pilot on to somebody who, you know, said something wrong on Twitter four years ago and it's come back, you know? Yeah. Um, and I, yeah, I think that raised, I don't know what that's all about Gabby: for that reason is a great conversation question I think is like, what do you do when you're confronted with someone posting something that you don't agree with or that, you know, is factually wrong? Like what, what do you do with that to you, Emma, just actually asking, because I'm trying to think of what I do. I mean, there've been plenty of times where I've gone on a Instagram story. Rant. I'm not going to deny that, but I would also say that the last two years, especially has kind of taught me, has taken, kind of has made me realized I don't need to have a PR statement about everything I encounter in life all the time, but I really felt that way, I would say, oh yeah, like in 2019 I felt that way, you know, Mel: Sam. Yeah. And, uh, yeah, yeah, go ahead. Well, I just think, you know, ultimately, ultimately what we, what we do and how we respond to things and how we let information absorb into our so like guess matters most when we're not spewing about it online, you know, like what that does to us as people and highway, then in turn, respond to others really matters. But you know, it's still really hard to kind of get away from this pace of like accountability. And like, I still don't really know what, what, where the rules are around that, you know, and I guess, I guess our ability to critically think and hold people accountable, there are just seem to be class Tandon hand at the minute, you know, as, as something we're not really, we really don't know how to handle, and there's just such a lack of maturity with our outrage and our, um, ability to hold a count on our ability to critically think. And I think we are really desperately needing leaders to show us what it looks like to. Maturely critically think and maturely hold people to account and with wisdom and depths, Gabby: um, and kindness to like, think about your friends. You know, like when you have a different view or a different worldview than your friend does, you know, it's really easy to sometimes kind of line all of your ducks up in a row, your arguments stock them, and then you're confronted with a real life person that you genuinely love and you care about who thinks something different. I think that's happened to a lot of us, especially these last few years, as we have all been like sharing what we think about everything all the time. How do you treat that person, you know, who is like showed up when you had a baby or like was there at your parents' funeral or, you know, like these real life humans who you actually do your life with, who thinks something different to you? And I think that's kind of what I always have to when I'm, when I feel like I'm doing this. Right. Which isn't all the time. I feel like that's kind of where my brain goes is I Mel: compartmentalize Gabby: a person. Yeah. Yeah. Like I might not agree with you, but if you were my friend, how would I have this conversation? When I go on Instagram, on Twitter and puts you on blast? Probably not. You know, I. Approach you privately and be like, can we have a conversation about this? Cause when you said this, it really, you know, it made me feel some things I feel, I just want to hear more about why you feel that or why you think that. Mel: Um, and I think that kind of closeness and then removal of, of people on the internet. It's like, we feel this like folk closeness to so many people that then, Gabby: you know, we, Mel: but there actually we have not, we have no idea, but the full picture context of their lives. And yet there are people who, who possession themselves as authorities or possession themselves as leaders and welcomed the benefit of that. But don't really show up for the accountability of that. Yeah. Um, or, or whatever. Um, you know, we see this time and time again with like disgraced church leaders in cases of sexual abuse, um, you know, financial abuse. And we see this with celebrities who have been reassessed or in the past, or have like mid, you know, completely abstained misogynistic comments or whatever it is. Um, and, and I think that there is, there is a call to like, if you're gonna reap the benefit of having a platform and on the, and financially benefiting, um, par and in place of par benefiting, then you also need to reconcile the idea that. Gabby: And people are watching, Mel: you know, in every way. So I don't want to be a celebrity ever. Gabby: I know I don't want, uh, no, I, I it's terrifying. Mel: I don't want that. Like I, yeah, I really don't. Um, and I don't know what the, I don't want the station is, but I think, I think it's not council culture. I know that. Um, I Gabby: think in my perfect world though, like, you know, say a celebrity says something that's like, just not, not cool, you know, in my perfect world, that person would still have people in their lives who would sit them down and be like, Hey, like, I know what you meant, cause I know you, or I know where you're coming from, but maybe like this is hitting these people this way and we should have a, we think about that. And this is just important because you've got 2 million people following you, you know, or whatever. Like, I don't know. I, I will say, uh, one of my favorite things about tech talk as a form of social media is the, at least the side of tech talk that I am on. Most of these things get diffused with a ton of humor. Like it's very humor based. So for example, the difference in react, social media reactions, I've seen two Kim Kardashians just telling, telling women just get up. Well, just get up, like, you know, nobody wants to work. No one wants to work. And I am just like, uh, I am the example of what it is to work hard. Uh I'm like Kim, all of us. Yes. All we do is work. Yes. We, I don't piss off so many. We're doing this work in so many problematic things with that. Instagram's response has been outrage, dissertations, like, you know, blog posts, reasons why there's so many reasons to be angry about it, which there are take talk just makes fun of it. And I feel like. Mel: They're not, I guess that's a, that's a place of privilege. So to be able to fail, like it's funny, don't you think? So for some people, so like for a single mom, who's busting her balls to put food on the table for her kids who doesn't have the support of an extra partner, she might not find it funny. It might just be painful for her to know, like to, to hear that from somebody like her. So I think to be able to like find something. Yeah. So find the humor in it is definitely possessional Gabby: well, yes, no, I mean, I do agree. Not everyone's gonna know not everyone should find it funny. I don't know. That's not the takeaway. I mean, I have you say that and I actually have seen women posts like me as a single mom, like, you know, with a full-time job, listening to Kim Kardashians and like they're making a joke of it themselves that doesn't say that everyone should, should have the same reaction to that. I just think. It's interesting, which parts of media you choose to engage with the different types of reactions you'll see, and everyone has its own personality. And I personally have found tech talks sometimes really useful in this way, when I'm feeling a lot of anger about the world, because I'm being overloaded with information that I didn't ask for that is upsetting to me to see someone else kind of still call it out. Still say, they're not okay with it, but insert some humanity and you know, levity to the situation. And Mel: of course everybody's going to have a different yeah. Way to respond to it or how they feel, you know about that. Um, yeah. For sure. Yeah. I don't know. It's just an interesting time to make sense of, of the world. Um, and have any kind of fully formed opinion, I guess that's the thing. And it's not that we don't, I think we should have fully formed values and convictions about like, what is okay. And what's not okay in terms of, for us to be our family or whatever. Um, but I think opinions on the nuance of big issues that we only ever get exposed to tiny percentage of in the world, or know what you know, and there's just this feeling. I think the more and more that we, nobody wants to feel like they're a pawn in, in the, in the hands of like, um, big brother or. Gabby: Big media or Mel: big pharma or what, you know, like none of us want to feel like that and there's this like, no, you're not going to make me small. You're not gonna, you know, like this defiance of it with, and I think that is growing and you can see a lot of people kind of stepping up in those places, like refusing to kind of be played. Yeah. You know, as well. Um, but again, it takes maturity, like what is the mature way to not feel played by those things? Um, it's not like it is the mature is the mature way. Like. Um, I was going to give an example there, but I Gabby: know you might get canceled if you to talk. I know I'm already like waiting for all. I'm waiting for both sides of the Kim Kardashians to cancel me any day now. Um, no, I think that's, I think that's really why wise mal I do like stay cause at least if you are staying true to your values, even if you evolve as a human, which I hope you do, because I don't have the same values I had when I was 19. And I'm grateful for that. But I look back on some of the things that I cringe at when I was 19, that were aligned with my values at the time. And I still feel proud about the fact that I stayed true to myself. Even if I don't agree with some of the things like that, kind of, you can feel a sense of like, well, you know, I got it wrong, but. One thing I got right in that situation was I just, I tried to be as honest as I could. And as a line to, you know, my personal values, more than my personal opinions and to set, distinguishing that you probably does take a bit of maturity as well. And just some and some time and thought, like, what do you actually value versus what is just an opinion? You have a strongly held opinion. I think that, but you know, like a value, like loving people, you know, that is, that is going to manifest. That's going to wreak all kinds of havoc on your opinions. Mel: I'm sure we're all just really trying. We're just trying our best. Aren't my only hope that we are all just trying our best to kind of be good people to look after each other and to, you know, not baby. Walking around terrified all the time. I think we are all just trying to make sense of the really difficult, overwhelming big stuff going on in the world. Um, and we can really ultimately only be accountable for ourselves. Yeah. I think that's the, that's probably the big macro lesson is, you know, ultimately we can see what other people are doing wrong and how they're getting it wrong. If we turn the mirror and Gabby: think about it, it's, it's enough to be getting on, like, sure. Like, I don't know about you, but I'm like just managing this station right here. This brain and heart feels so overwhelming enough. Like I don't need anyone else. Mel: I think that's why I, I really, this is, I've been having lots of conversations about this recently. I think that's why our projections it's so much fricking easier to shoot the lens at other people and try and hold up their mirror for them than to hold it up to our sales. It really is. Um, cause that that's the hard work and that's why nobody does it. It's because we're all just terrified of what we're going to see, what kind of flows and judgements we have ourselves. I'm a really positive coach by the way, if you want Gabby: no R though. And I think, yeah, I think that's, that's true. This is the work that is the work. Yeah. It's the mirror work. That's Mel: the work and nobody wants to do it because it's hard. Gabby: It is hard. It's uncomfortable. Well, I think we, I think that's all I got for that. You did good gaps takes? Mel: Yeah, well done. Definitely go to bed by probably. Well, maybe you should. I might, I might to do the minutes 20 past 12, and I need to eat lunch, but I might actually need a nap after that. Gabby: Hopefully you guys don't need a nap after listening to that, but Mel: no. Yeah, we appreciate you and appreciate you being here as we literally think I lied about this stuff and have no definitive yeah. Uh, conclusions, but yeah, that's where we're at. Thanks again. We really appreciate that you stick with us in the hangout, in our airspace and, um, and send us lovely messages. And we're always, always grateful. Yeah, and we'll see you next time. See you next time. Gabby: Bye. Bye Thank you so, so much for listening to this week's episode of the making and effort podcast, it feels like such an honor to get to connect with you all every week like this. And we just want to say a massive thanks. You can always get in touch with us at our email address, which is hello@makinganeffortpodcast.com or you can get in touch with us individually on our Instagram accounts. In our DMS, you can get in touch with Mel at Mel Wiggins, or you can get in touch with me at gab Llewellyn. And if you're feeling really generous today, we have. Be so grateful if you took the time to like, and subscribe and maybe even leave a review and maybe even share this episode with your friends on your social media, um, those kinds of things go such a long way for podcasters like us. And, uh, it would be such an honor to receive that from you. So thank you. And we will talk to you next week. Bye.