Episode 38: Friendship Dilemmas - Your Questions!

This week we spent some time discussing some of the friendship dilemmas that you sent through to us. It's clear that so many of the challenges we face in our friend relationships are so universal and common, so we hope by hearing the things others are navigating that you feel seen and know that we're all out here trying to this friendship thing as best we can!

>>> Click here to read the computer generated transcript (note that the transcript isn't perfect)

Mel: Welcome back to the and effort podcast, the podcast where you get to drop in on a conversation with two friends discussing. Oh, the things they make an effort with them. Some of the things they don't. Hi Gabby.

Gabby: Hi, Mel. How's it going?

Mel: it's fine. I'm just got some chimney sweep, drama happening, which sounds very Mary Poppins, Z. Gabby: Welcome to the Northern Irish contingent of this podcast.

Mel: The chimney sweeps here. I got to go. It is a real thing. I don't know north American people who don't have chimneys, but we need them swept. We gotta get them cleaned and there'll be

Gabby: chimneys. But I don't know if we have like regular sweeps, like, cause my mother-in-law will be like, oh yeah, the chimney sweep came by blah, blah, blah. Mel: And it

Gabby: like a Dickens novel over here.

Mel: So little boy going to be, you know, put up the chimney. That's just how it works. We're still living in that world. Just kidding. They're very professional, but I do have a. Light cream rug in my living room. Yeah. That almost ruined my marriage when it was purchased, almost drove us apart. And if it gets dirty with chimney suit, there will be hell to pay. So stay tuned. Um, speaking of relationships,

Gabby: speaking of

Mel: Yeah, this is part two of our conversation about, uh, tricky stuff in friendship. So last week we talked a bit about, um, what happens when friendship is tricky and when, when we have like hard experiences within friendship and, um, you know, like, is there a point where you. Or you buy out or, you know, ho hi, how do you maintain a healthy friendship just as you would, any other relationship? Um, and what we did last week and on Instagram was asked key for any of the, the tricky stuff that's come up for you and, and friendship. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and you came in with some really. Really big things. Yeah. Yeah. This

Gabby: is an intense

Mel: list here. Yeah. So I've kind of written out all of the responses that came through. And just thank you so much for those. Um, if nothing else, it's, it's really a relief to, to know that everybody experiences friends. Difficulties and that it's, it's not just always a kind of straightforward, hanging out, making memories kinda thing. And, um, on that as you, I guess, I mean, just looking at this list, like, as we get older, like they get more serious in lots of ways. Yeah, that kind of stuff that comes up. So we thought we would, um, go through some of these things and just chat about them, not as any kind of friendship experts, but as, as curious humans also navigating and friendships, right? Yeah,

Gabby: exactly. This is not coming from an expert position. This is just bringing, well, kind of like what we said at the beginning of the last episode, you know, we just want to bring some of these things to the light, because I think when you're in the thick of it, it can feel like. You're the only one going through something like this and that this is a friendship, a non anomaly. And that thus must mean something's wrong with your, with your relationship and really that none of that needs to be true. W we all go through a lot of ups and downs and usually the older we get the more serious, I guess, I think, I mean, maybe that's not true. That has been true for me, but anyway, um, so we're excited to talk about some of this stuff and yeah, hopefully it makes some people feel a little less alone. I know reading this list has made me feel a little less alone.

Mel: So, yeah. Um, and one of the big, so one of the big things that came up, um, kind of in a recurring Rhonda bite way, it was a tricky stuff going on and friendship that also involves, um, our partners. So, um, I'm just going to read out some of the. Some of the things that all kind of go into that category, I suppose, or all that you would kind of put together as a more, a similar conversation that to kind of talk about. So I'm just going to read the minutes. So when a couple here, mutual friends separate, and you have loyalties on both sides, um, having, uh, flatmates going through domestic or emotional abuse when. Your friends and there are other ha your other halves don't get along in a friendship. Um, I'm assuming that that's like your partner and their partner don't get along. Yeah. That's how I read that. Um, when you don't like your friend's partner, because you don't think that they treat her well, um, When friends confess a bite cheating before they tell their spouse. Um, and they tell you about that first, uh, friends and toxic relationships and that kind of thing. Um, yeah, so there was quite a few messages of white integrating the dynamic of a partner or a spouse or whatever, and, and the relationship and. When that doesn't go well, or when things are hard on that, on that side of things, um, what is your friendship responsibility? And at what level do you involve yourself or get involved in things? Gabby? Why don't you take this off?

Gabby: I know it was like, where are we going with this? How are we going to answer this?

Mel: I am not here to answer anything from the get go. I think that's really tricky. Like just me, you know, I think we've probably all been there at some level of young adulthood or adulthood where we have been friends with someone or close to someone and they've got into a relationship with another person, um, a partner and we have not liked how that partner has behaved or treated them or, um, hi. Hi, things have changed maybe in our friendships because of the introduction of another like romantic partner. Yeah.

Gabby: I mean, I would say for all of these, I haven't experienced all of these situations personally, but some of them I definitely have, and I would say in my experience, um, I just kind of think. I mean, it's so personal, it's such a personal decision and you need to know your friendship and your relationship. You know, you, you know, the dynamics there, you know, what, what that's like, but for me in my friendships, whenever there's been an issue with the partner, I have never found it. Um, like, unless like there's an immediate life or death situation, which has, that has never happened to me yet. Um, it hasn't happened to me yet. Um, And it's just kind of a matter of preferences or personality. Um, maybe even some really difficult stuff I have always found it's best. Just kind of. Just let your friend know that you're there for them like that you love them, you're there for them. And that you're not going to make any judgements about, well, you're not going to get involved in that. I would say I'm only saying that because the times when I have, even when it's like been asked of me, like, what do you think about this? Or what do you think about this person or whatever? And I have been honest and I've said, Stuff that I still stand by. It has always, if, if your friend ends up ignoring your advice in my experience, that's often the end of the friendship. And for me, sometimes I'm kind of like, You did ask my opinion and I'm not saying you need to lie. I'm just saying it's, it's tricky. Isn't it? Like? I think, I think if I had known that they were going to be Jewish shamed of, of ignoring my, uh, ignoring the advice they asked for or the opinion they asked for, um, because I'm assuming that's where it comes from of why they don't want. To me to be involved because it's like, or why they want to end the relationship because it's like, well, I'm being with this person that I know you don't like. Yeah.

Mel: And it's, and there's probably a level of embarrassment there as well, or just like awareness of judgment, which we can't, we can't say isn't there because it's been explicitly said,

Gabby: yeah, see,

Mel: I know exactly. So the person is, is having to navigate. I know that you think this, um, I am, I guess the chances are that there might be thinking. You're probably judging me for being with this person because you need, I know what you think and I'm still here. Um, and I see how that could easily be the surmising that happens, you know? Yeah.

Gabby: Oh definitely. I can too. Yeah. I mean, this is like an, like non-violent, non-life threatening situations. I don't, you know, I can't speak into that. I'm looking at the one that's talking about. Domestic abuse. I, I don't know maybe what I would do about that, but, but, uh, apart from like a violence situation or an abusive situation, when it's just kind of a dislike or, you know, maybe someone just kind of being a bit shady.

Mel: Yeah. Um, or you maybe notice that they're just, yeah. Yeah. That they're not really. Respectful or you don't really like how they speak to the person. Yes. And

Gabby: that kind of a thing. Um, I don't know. That has just been my experience to the point now where I'm like, well, I think that going forward, I've had this happen so many times. Well, a handful of times now where I just am, like, I, I don't think I would ever fully tear into someone. Partner. Okay. Because I hopped on that before. I don't know, this is just my experience and this is why we're sharing. So this is not advice. This is just my experience because I don't want to lose the friendship. And I would rather, and especially if I'm afraid my friend might be getting into a not great scenario. I would want to know that. I would want her to know that I'm there for her. Yeah.

Mel: The door is open. Yeah. Yeah. Rather than the door is a wall of judgment.

Gabby: Exactly.

Mel: Exactly. Yeah. And I think in all of that, the only thing that you can really do, and I don't know that I've ever nailed this, but I'm trying is to be team friend, like yeah. Like to reiterate and really. Make super clear that no matter what I am team you like exactly. If it goes really well, I am Tamy if it, if it's, you know, it goes to the shutter, um, tame you, and ultimately like everybody is autonomous. They have to make their own decisions. Even if you give your opinion. And that person decides actually, you know what, they're right. I can say it, this isn't right. Yeah. They, there's still an element of where they're holding your response in some level of responsibility for their decision. I just don't think you can get away from that. And so ultimately really in those situations, I guess all you can do if. It's just reiterate that you are tame your friend, um, and double down on keeping that door open so that if things, do you have the shutter that you can.

Gabby: Yeah. And I mean, I have been on the other side of this, so I do know what it feels like. Like when, when Chris and I started dating, you know, he was a touring musician that I literally met in a coffee shop. And so I had a few friends who were excited for me, but also kind of like your. Dating this stranger essentially, which was true. It was true. Like, I didn't know him at all. I didn't know any of his friends didn't know his family didn't know where he came from. He was just a stranger. I met in a coffee shop. Um, but I had friends who were like, who, if they did have those concerns, they kept them to themselves. And just, and they also didn't have anything negative to them. There was nothing negative coming up. There was just like the blanket. Um, we don't know who this guy is, but I had friends who were like, we're with you in this all the way. We're excited for you. Um, and then I had a small handful of friends who just didn't understand how the relationship worked. And I did find myself just being like, I don't want to talk like this is something that's really exciting and fun for me in my life right now. Yeah, and I'm just afraid. You're just going to like sit around and judge it. And I know that it's good. And I w I feel like hurt that you don't trust me. And I feel like there's been nothing untoward in this relationship for you to even judge, you know? And so I've been on the other side and it does suck. Like it does feel, you know, like, It feels vulnerable, you know, like that someone might be judging the person you're you're picking, you know? And so, yeah. I don't know. I think what you said earlier about team friend and just like I'm here for the highs I'm here for the lows. Yeah. That that's kind of. How I do things now after doing it not right. Quite a few times, I'm not

Mel: right. Oh, of course. But then also just like this whole thing about like, um, maybe I guess in like hetero relationships, like wherein, you know, if the husbands don't get along, like. Pardon me. So you can't do that. Do they have to like, is it important? You know, like that's yeah. I mean, I

Gabby: don't think they have to,

Mel: I don't think they have to, um, it would be awesome. Like, it's always nice. Whenever you find a couple friendship that where you can do stuff together and everyone gets on, but that's, that's a really, like, that's a holy grail. It's not like we've talked about this before. Like the friendships where, you know, everybody feels like. Like they can have a really good time together and are on the same page are really rare. And those kind of couple relationships are even more rare and like, um, family, families, and families, relationships where kids are similar ages have similar interests. Like it doesn't often line up. And I think that's why it's so important to kind of separate that, you know, this person is the friend on all the stuff that comes with them is important to you because they're important to them, but they don't necessarily have to be integrated into the friendship in these big, in these big, big ways. Right? Like, yeah. Yeah. There's probably of plenty of friends where, you know, like Dave isn't, it doesn't necessarily have anything in common with their partners or. You know, that's that's okay. Yeah. Unlike well and vice versa and vice

Gabby: versa. That's the thing like, you know, your partner may have a friend and you're like, I don't know if I want to call up, you know, their spouse. It's fine. It does. It's not, it's not a judgment. It's just, it is what it is. I think that's fine. And also kind of like nice sometimes to just have your own friends. You know,

Mel: what have I, this one of my, um, friends that have confessed to you that they've cheated before they've told their spice shit. That's some big stuff. Yeah,

Gabby: it's a big one. Yeah. I mean, I haven't experienced that personally. But, yeah, I don't know. I mean, my gut, this is my gut opinion and I don't, I'm very happy to be wrong or it, for it to just be my opinion, but I kind of think it goes back to that like overarching theme of like team friends. And also, you know, I, I think I would like to imagine that if it was my friend, that would be like, Hey, for the sake of your wellbeing and your spouse wellbeing, like you should probably tell them, but that's your job to do, you know? Right. I don't know. You're looking at me like,

Mel: no, I'm literally sitting here thinking, oh man, if that was the kiss, what what'd you do? Like, um, That's so hard. Cause it's like, I guess in the reality of it, there, I'll be really honest. It'd be part of me that would be really annoyed with my friends. You know? Like just like, what the hell are you doing? Like wake up. Obviously, this is like an entirely massive life-changing thing that that is happening in your friend's life. So you've got to balance the like, okay, you're going through something either. Your relationship is, is really not in a good place, and this is why you're here. Or you have made a really silly mistake, but again, it's probably evidence of there being something going on that isn't. Well in your relationship to lead you there, but, you know, I think I would find, I think I would find it really hard to not be like, you need to end it and you need to stop. And like, what are you doing? I think it's all well and good to think that you would be like, I support you no matter what, but think in reality, my friends told me that. What are you doing? Yes. You know, I mean, I think I would get there eventually, but I think my initial reaction would be like,

Gabby: oh yeah. I'm yes. Yeah, definitely. And then encourage them to like, To like tell mm. But, uh, I don't know. Oh, that's so tricky. Especially if you're friends with the spouse as well.

Mel: Exactly. And I think in this, in this situation, the person that, uh, That wrote in a bite. This, I think there was a couple of instances where this happened, where they were, the person that was told. And in one case they did tell their spice and then the other, I think it was just, it was like a kiss and then they didn't tell their spice and chose not to. But I think there's something a bite. You knowing something outside of that sacred relationship that the other person doesn't know that could really drive a real wedge. In your friendship actually. Yeah, because I know it's not that it couldn't be repaired, but I think there's this, there's this kind of hierarchy level of like relationship honesty and integrity and closeness that I think the highest level should be reserved for your spice. Really. Um, if your friend knows more about what's going on in your relationship than your spice does yes. That feels problematic. And I would find it really uncomfortable to be a rind, the spice that didn't know. And also I, and yeah, I would just feel really annoyed that I was put in that position, I think. Yes,

Gabby: yes. Uh, a hundred percent agree with all of those things that you just said, that it is uncomfortable when you feel like that sacred. Like it's almost feels, it makes you feel like you're complicit, even though you're just someone who's been put in a really difficult position.

Mel: Yeah. That's really hard. And I think this, this whole kind of waves into the bigger conversation of like, what, what do you do? Cause there was other stuff that came through. On Instagram of like dilemmas or rind, like conflict and confrontation and friendship. Um, and how do you approach your friend whenever you aren't happy with something that's happened or where you felt like mistreated by a friend or you are feeling like you have there's real differences there, or expectations, or you disagree on something? Like, how do you, how do you handle that? You know, That's I think that's really, that's really hard. I'm I am definitely a nip it in the bud kind of gal. Yeah. I like, and also I have set up, it's funny because like one of my closest friends, we are not. We are not, um, void of having big disagreements. Um, we're both, we both can be pretty hot headed and go, not to a hundred pretty quickly if we disagree, or if she catch us at the wrong time and we have set up these kinds of. Conflict parameters and boundaries within our friendship. Now that we know how we disagree with each other and how I get pretty toxic and we're really committed to our friendship, but for us, we know that to have an in-person or on the phone or FaceTime conversation is, is always going to, and really badly because we both just really want to be. Right. Right. And so we have, we have an agreement. Stuff comes up and we are struggling with each other in some respect, or we have felt like, I don't know, mistreated or disrespected or unconsidered in some way we have this. We tick 24 RS and then we email each other, our thoughts. Huh? That's cool. Because the kind of slow process, I think for someone who likes to, to be like Mae or like, you know, have a tendency to. Self-righteous or want to be right? Um, the act of like slowing down and really thinking about what I want to say and how I want to say it and getting my failings across and like a written way is way healthier. And this dynamic for us. Yeah. As friends. And it has worked really well when we've had to execute that. That's amazing.

Gabby: I think that's but see that's I think that ties in back with what we were saying last episode is like learning, learning how to stay committed to a relationship and a friendship through those times and finding systems at work that allow you to forge ahead. Because you care about the friendship. And I think that's so often, I mean, I even do it where I'm like, well, we're having our first conflict. It must mean that there's a 50 50 chance. We'll make it through, you know, like I can, I, to this day can kind of still find myself falling into that thought pattern of, and it doesn't have to be like, And I don't think it should be like that necessarily, but I do think sometimes we, we can be so conflict averse that we just kind of. Take that as a signal of the death of a friendship, because we don't want to go there instead of being like, okay, let's find out how it's, how we need to get through this for us. And our ways of communicating that worked for us. Um, I think that's

Mel: incredibly self-aware. It comes down to that cm thing about like high society and home maybe subconsciously we have attached kind of a lesser value to the. The kind of work that needs to be put into friendship. And so it feels like this thing that. Okay, should we just let it go more easily? Like just, you know, cut it off or stop it. Um, whereas you wouldn't necessarily go to that drastic measure as quickly if it was, you know, a sibling or a husband. Um, but somehow for friendships, it feels like you can maybe go there real much, much quicker. And I find that really interesting, whereas they, they, they deserve to see him kind of scaffolding. Oh, yeah. Figure a night. You know, what, what the best way is to approach each other on these, on these things. And that's not going to be the same rule for, for everybody, but it texts at Def a definite level of self-awareness and awareness of your real commitment to the goodness of the friendship, right? Like, so, you know, in this particular one that I'm talking about, we have, we have so much shared. Experience and not just shared experience because that can also be just a bit of a myth that makes you feel obliged to stay in a friendship. Right. But I have, I have the evidence of the friendship being significant. I have the backing of the years where that has been proven to be a really important relationship to me. so I'm not going to just throw the towel in on it. Yeah. Without a fight or an email.

Gabby: Yeah. I think that's amazing. I love that. It's like, yeah. I wonder if we had that kind of a mind shift or mind set shift where we thought about fighting for a relationship and having uncomfortable conversations. Being a marker of how committed we are to our relationship instead of feeling poorly about it. Um, like if that would change how we interact in those situations. I think it would change for me. Like if someone was like, if someone sat me down and was like, you know what, I'm bringing this up because they care about our friendship and I want to keep being friends. And, you know, this has been really bothering me for the last. Um, and I've, it's very vulnerable for me to share it, but I, I, I care about you and I want to still be friends, but I'm having a hard time getting past it. I think it would be hard to hear, but I also think I would feel incredibly loved in that. I do think I would, um, I think it would still be hard to hear and it would still probably have a lot of strong emotions about that. I hate being. I hate being, um, wrong. I'm one of those people that I, one of those people that's like so annoying to have like a fight with or a conflict with, because I I'm one of those people who like feels and this isn't true and I'm learning it, that your intention should be the thing that's about. Judge, not your actions silly, which obviously is not

Mel: true. I can't you say passed by or like,

Gabby: yeah, like I didn't mean to do that. I didn't like that. Wasn't my intention. Like, why can't you love me based off of my intentions, not what actually

Mel: happened. That's so really I really, really had to that. And I also think, I wonder, is there something a bite, the fact that we, we only have. You know, and a mind to have energy to spend on Mecca and our relationships really good and healthy. And so, you know, the amount of energy that we spend protecting, uh, maintaining and growing healthy relationships in those big ones, right? Like a partner or, you know, immediate family maybe, or, you know, our children. And then it feels like the next tier is this like, uh, Friendship thing. So, I mean, do we have, you know, I think there has to be a level of. At what, at what concentric circle outside of the immediate one, am I willing to give the energy to maintain the health and growth of FIA this friendship? So where does it come in? Because we can't have that level of like bringing things up and correcting no things to make it better with all of our friendships, because that is sounds exhausting and not fun. No.

Gabby: Oh, if you want to have a friendship with me, I'm going to be like, sorry. Yeah.

Mel: I feel like there's really only a handful of friendships where that level of like, no, you are my ear or my ride or die. Like you are my person. And I am willing to. I am willing to like treat this as a sacred relationship in my life. So let's, let's do the work that we, I would with any of my other really significant relationships to make this as healthy as possible, because there's something to this, you know, like there's this, there's a soul connection. Yeah. I guess that's. Part of what I, I wanted to say as well. Like I wouldn't expect that with like, no, you know, periphery friendships that are really, that can be deep, deep at times, but there's less of an expectation there and, and the mutuality of it. I don't know.

Gabby: I agree. And I think, you know, when it's right, you know, when it's the right time to kind of bring something up, we're not, or equally not bring something.

Mel: Right. I think that is probably. What we should cover next step. When is the right time to bring something up? Cause there was some stuff about like, um, by the way, as a background noise that you can hear, and this is the chimney to hear that I didn't

Gabby: notice it,

Mel: but that's, that's a little boy going up.

Gabby: It sounded really weird.

Mel: So, um, but yes, this like, uh, like when the right time is to like actually give and receive advice. And when is the time to just let your friendship do its thing? I don't know, that's probably a conversation for another time. Um, other stuff that we, that came up that we, we thought would be interesting to cover is long distance friendship. I have a lot of experience with that. I know you do too. Um, when you're. Beliefs and stuff are very different to your friends. So again, looking at this kind of disagreeing, well kind of thing, you know, I know a couple of people mentioned COVID differences and high that I can say that that has absolutely divided. I mean, divided families, you know? So it's, um, these kind of hot topics. Often divide. Um, how do you navigate that? Um, what was some other stuff? Oh yeah. This came up a bunch of times as well, was the blurred lines between, um, personal and professional relationships. So like when you make friends with people in the workplace and especially if they're like dynamics within the workplace that, you know, maybe somebody is up the food chain or something from you and you form a friendship and then you have to also. Be professional. Like that can be tricky. Um, but yeah, it's, uh, you know, the more that we get talking about this, the more, I think fascinating it is to kind of place importance on friendship and the things that come up because it's yeah, it's,

Gabby: it's big. It's big. Well, thank you for trusting us with your stories and for, um, Yeah, tuning in this, these things are so important. And I think this is exactly why we have this podcast is because. Fascinated by friendship. It's like a really terrible 2001 blog.

Mel: Well, it's true. It is true. Um, we're going to try and cover some of this other stuff again, but if you, in the meantime, want to write in with any kind of particular stories or dilemmas or anything that relates to, just to the kind of trick your site. Uh, maintain and, and grow in friendships and honest and authentic ways. And please do reach out to us on Instagram. Um, you know, where we are on there, or you can email us at hello at making an effort, podcast.com. We'd absolutely love to hear from you. Um, yeah. And thanks again for everybody who you, who got in touch and sent us their, uh, their dilemmas as well. Yeah. All right, friends. Yeah, we'll see you next time. Thanks for listening.