Episode 16: What Makes A Good Leader?

What does it mean to be a good leader? Are we all leading someone in some way? This is what we're diving into this week. We talk about trust, expecting people to fail and accountability. There's a lot to unpack here about being a leader and a follower.

This week on the podcast we actually delve into one Mel’s areas of expertise— leadership. We kind of start off this episode from the perspective of a “follower” and what we look for in the people we choose to follow. We talk about how we both really strongly believe that listening is a key part of what makes a good leader.

We discuss how leadership can look different between women and men, and what kind of leadership people are more drawn to these days.

And mostly we talk about how when we lead and create environments that allow humans to be human and thrive, we actually are making the world a better place.

There weren’t a TON of references this week, however we do mention Brené Brown a few times and if you’re not familiar with her body work on leadership, we definitely suggest you check her out. She’s got a lot of great things to say.

Have a good week!

>>> Click here to read the computer generated transcript (note that the transcript isn't perfect)

Mel: Hello, and welcome back to the making and effort podcast. This is the podcast where you get to drop in on a conversation with two friends, discussing all the things they make an effort with. And some of the things we just don't. Um, so Hey Gabby, how are you today?

Gabby: Hi, Mel. I'm doing great. Just finishing my coffee.

Mel: Amazin'. So it's coffee time for you early. Yeah, in Nashville. And I is diet Coke time for me at lunchtime here in Northern Ireland. I know.

Gabby: So diet Coke time for me is when it's usually 3:30 PM because it's late enough in the day that I can't have coffee. Cause that's too charged, but I still need like a caffeine upper.

Mel: Yeah, just a little.

Gabby: Yeah. And usually it's the hottest point of the day in Tennessee. So you're ready for like a cold. Coke.

Mel: Oh yeah, absolutely. A dewy can condensation.

Gabby: Yep. Sparkling Cola.

Mel: Um, I'm sure you didn't either

Gabby: Coca-Cola company.

Mel: Oh boy. Okay. So today I go in, I wanted to have a conversation, a boat. Uh, leadership. And also, can I just say, you've just taken a step out of your coffee and that is the biggest, most of noxious handle on a coffee mug. I have ever,

Gabby: Chris hates it a mean, obviously it's someone made this by hand.

Mel: Okay. I feel bad for slagging it off. Yeah. You shift that handle. That handle is literally like...

Gabby: There's my hand for reference.

Mel: It's like half the size of your hand. I know. Anyway. Okay. So it is beautiful though. Um, we are gonna try and have a chat today up by leadership. Um, and yeah, this is, this feels like a big topic, but I feel like we probably have plenty to say.

Gabby: Yeah, I think, I mean, I'm really not trying to downplay my. Experience with leadership as in being a leader, I'm not really trying to be self-deprecating, but I just haven't, there's not, I haven't had a ton of leadership roles in my life. And I think intentionally it's something that I've. I have never tried to step into, so, but I also have a lot of thoughts about leadership as someone who loves to follow people.

Mel: So well, that's why this is interesting because it's, you know, we can speak from both this perspective of being lad and experiencing different types of leadership. And then also maybe a little bit about what. What it has meant to lead in some way, because one of the things I wanted to even just throw a question Mark over was is everyone leading someone?

Yeah.

Gabby: Yeah. I mean, probably on some level, I, that is probably true. I was with a friend the other night, fully vaccinated, just have to say. And, uh, she, we were just talking about sharing. You're you know, like having a mesh message that you want to share. And I told her, and I do believe this. I was like, it doesn't matter if it's a message that's been heard a million times before.

There are still people who need to hear it through your voice. And I do believe that. And so I, I do think that the same goes for leadership. There are going to be, there are going to be places that only you can take certain people. Just because of the nature of your relationship with them and the trust that you have built with them. And, um, they're gonna be better for it. And I do think everyone kind of has some kind of leadership role in their sphere, even if it's like with their kids. Um, but yeah, I do. I do think so personally.

Mel: Yeah, I do too. And I'm interested. To hear from you, like, based on your experience, like what, what are some of the things that you have experienced or that you recognize as a good leader?

Oh gosh. Um, so.

Gabby: I just think that people need to understand before we go any further, that it's really hard to talk about this topic without just regurgitating every Brenae Brown podcast you've ever. Well, that's exactly what I was going to do.

Mel: So should we just stop this here?

Gabby: No, no, there are going to be people who need to hear us say it, Mel.

Hmm. Um, no.

Mel: True, true. True.

Gabby: I, uh, I guess as I was prepping for this episode, one thing that I realized for me, I think for me, in, in recent times, leadership has become a bit of a trigger word and that was something I kind of wanted to unpack before we kind of dive into the attributes of a leader, um, or what we think a good leader is.

And. I was like, why am I so triggered by this? And I think it's, and I, I mean, for me, I think there's been. Like, I, I am someone who likes to follow, like I, the last few job interviews I've done in my life, like I tell the people that I'm interviewing with. Like, I like to be managed, not in a micromanagy like controlling.

Like you have to follow up on it with me on every little thing. But like, I love to be told what to do. I love to be directed, especially in a work context, but in other areas of life too, there's just a lot of security about the just, I mean, sometimes it can just feel like you get to turn your brain off and follow someone you trust in some ways like, no, that's not actually how I approach leadership.

That's my temptation with leadership sometimes. Um, where I just, I feel like. I don't know if that makes any sense at all, where you're just like, They're doing the hard work and I get to just subscribe to their thing.

Mel: Do you think that, do you think that, that, do you think that that is always healthy though?

Gabby: No, I don't think it's healthy at all, but I think I, I'm not, I'm not saying that that is something that I would recommend. What I'm saying for me is that that's like an active temptation that I have to fight. So when I come into. Areas or spheres where I ha I am automatically under the leadership of people.

I really struggle with. I don't even know how to say this. Like I struggle with like, not just signing up for it all. But maybe, I don't know, but I, and I think, I think that pattern has resulted in me. Obviously someone could have predicted this getting burned and that is why leadership is a trigger word for me.

Right. Okay. So full, sorry.

Mel: That makes sense. No, that makes complete sense. I think when you put, when you put too much trust, And this is, I guess this is a lot of what I have written down in my notes to talk about is when you place, um, enormous expectations on someone. Um, and that way it's, it's a real perfect storm.

You know, you abdicate your own responsibility and you hold this person to a higher. Expectation. I think that that as a model fails really dangerous, um, and lots of ways. Yeah, because you know, then we get, we get hurt and then we respond to that hurt with, you know, resentment and feeling really like what, like, we want to throw the baby out with the bath water on legal, on leadership and in total as a whole concept.

And I'm not sure that that's. A great model for us to go around in circles with, is it?

Gabby: No, definitely. Yeah, not, but I do think that I think that whether people realize it or not, they like, we do this all the time. Like if you think about it's like, well, this person that I really respect, likes this, so.

How many times have you hit subscribe to something because Brenae Brown told you to like, not, you know, I'm just using that as an example because you trust her and her brands and leader and her and her leadership in. I think we do that in other spheres, too. Sure.

Mel: Absolutely.

Gabby: This is completely coming at opposite about following instead of leading, which is my expertise.

Mel: No, that's absolutely part of it though. I feel like that's part of it is, is like understanding how we respond to leadership and height. Um, what are like behaviors are rind up as well is so interesting. Um, and I have to, I have to really be mindful of this myself because I am in a position of being an air quotes leadership in terms of I laid my business and that business involves like a bunch of women who are incredible.

And so I take that, I take that really seriously. Um, I'm really, really curious about the best way to do that. And. And how to do that in a way that doesn't look like everything we have been given as the, as the normal structures of what leadership should be. I'm just so wary of it because I mean, I mean, we can count on all of the hands. The full of so many per saved laters because of, well, for many, many, many reasons, right? Like the, the par structures that play out are so toxic, um, whether that's in churches, whether that's in, you know, online businesses, whether that's in. Relationships and, um, you know, like people in the public eye, celebrities, whatever, um, when people are given all kinds of par, uh, no accountability and are trying to fit, what, what should be a real, um, I don't know, like a really healthy.

Roll into this really unhealthy system, your chart, you're going to churn out absolute nonsense. you know? Yeah. And so the expectations I think, are really unhealthy on both ends of being a leader in being a follower. Yeah. So models we've been given, I think.

Gabby: Yeah, no, I do think, I think that that is true in your experience.

Like, what are some of the, what, what are some of the unfair expectations that you feel like you have faced as a leader?

Mel: Oh, that I fiercest. Yeah. Um, well, I mean, I think I, what I really love the idea of exploring is that, is that we must expect leaders to feel like we must expect there to be failure or,

Gabby: Oh, you said fail like F.A.I.L.

Um, yeah, I, I, as an American feel feel, can you say that? Say, feel, and then say, fail.

Mel: Feel, fail.

Gabby: Okay. There was a slight difference, but yeah. Okay. We must expect leaders to fail.

Mel: Yeah. I mean, fail is also applicable.

Gabby: But, well, I, I say, I thought you said, I was like, Oh, this is interesting. Where is this going?

Mel: Mm, no, but like failure, you know, I think some of the, some of the stuff that has been so toxic in terms of public eye leadership, Is that we have, we have witnessed these leaders who have absolutely bitten the dust, you know, like they have just completely tanked in lots of ways.

But I mean, a lot of the reason why that's happened could be doing to expectations that they never will. And that's, I feel like that's so. Unhealthy, but we, I think that I love the idea of expecting that people are going to feel, but also giving people. The opportunity and the skillset and the, like the emotional intelligence and leader leaders, having the emotional intelligence to like put their hands up and be like, okay, that really sucked.

Um, I should not have done that. And I am, I'm here to listen and learn. Like, I mean, lessening is probably the most important part of being a leader, I reckon. Yeah.

Gabby: I wrote listening down as well. And I, I do appreciate that. It's probably a hard one because on the one hand, if you're a leader, you probably have some kind of like a vision or direction you're leading people to.

Um, but then within that kind of holding that vision, Intention with listening to the voices of people you are leading. Like that seems like it's gotta be a really delicate balance. And I mean, not every vision is worth, lead being led towards for sure. But that is the essence of leadership. So like, how do you, I guess I I'm thinking about this specifically.

In terms of being led spiritually. Um, like I've seen this play out so many times in my history with going to church where, you know, the pastor or the leader of the church has like a certain vision of like what they're there for, but then. You know, the people who go to the church don't agree with it. Or there's like a noisy sec section of the church that doesn't agree with it.

And so how do you hold that intention where it's like, I'm here to serve you as a leader spiritually, but also to bring you with me on this vision, towards this vision. It's like, yeah. And I mean, I, I suppose it applies to other spheres of leadership. I just, that's the one that I, that really came to mind with listening.

Mel: But also, is it really healthy that one person should have the vision?

Gabby: No, I don't think so.

Mel: Like, is it healthy that one person goes. Okay. Here's the vision of what I think we should be doing. And then I'm going to have to kind of on board or, you know, put fires where people, or, or, you know, like at all costs, you know, bulldoze over PayPal because you're hell bent on your own innovation happen.

Like I just don't think vision is, is healthy. What's it community and relationship.

Gabby: I totally agree. I completely agree.

Mel: Not only can you not bring that vision together without other people's help without other people's input, but also like it shouldn't just be yours. No, no. You know, like in any respect, like if you're serving clients in a business, if you're.

You know, creating community of any kind, if you are latent a church or whatever. Um, yeah. And I think that it has to be a byte, a whole other model than what we're used to as well, where, you know, it's all about yeah. You know, owning your shit.

Gabby: Yeah. Yeah. Well, what is that like different kind of model that you try to, you know, like implement in your own leadership? Mel: Um, well I think, I think for me the model that is served to me as a, as a, as a woman that is, is. Building a business and building community with women. Um, and this way, the model that's handed to me is often based on hustle on par, on dominating on metrics. Um, you know, those are all the kind of masculine elements of leadership that, you know, you gotta work.

You know, if you're not getting up, you don't want it hard enough if you don't, you know, like, yeah. All this kind of like leaders got to show that they are willing to take all the risks and do all the hard things. Um, and that might mean blah, blah, blah. And you know, just this, like. Well, what I feel is pretty toxic about that.

And so, um, I often I'm just like, okay, what is the opposite of this? And then what's in the middle with this. Yeah, yeah. And where do I, where do I want? Or how do I want this to feel? And, um, even today, like I was interviewing for a new position in, in my business and I like one of the questions that we had was.

Like for this person who was interviewing was, um, I want you to know that we, like, I don't expect perfection and I don't ex I expect that you're going to screw something up at some stage. Um, and so. Like, I want to hear from you. How do you feel about failure? How do you feel about, yeah, like Heidi, how do you communicate?

Whenever things, whenever something happens and you, you know, you've, you know, you've maybe let somebody dying or you've done something wrong or something gets cocked up. Like, I just, I just want you to know from the outset, whether this person gets the job or not, like, this is, this is not, this is not a requirement for. Like it, but what is a requirement for being part of this team is, um, having hard conversations about those things and not, uh, not, uh, not shying away because that's when leadership gets toxic and you start resenting people and you start, you know, talking about them behind their back or you start, um, you know, yeah.

All of that stuff, which is just, is not the model that we. That we need to ascribe to you.

Gabby: I don't think, you know, actually Chris mentioned to something to me in passing the other day, or he was saying, I think that we're entering into a new era of women taking the lead on things. Not because it's like, not just because it's like socially happening and people are like, You know, lift up women and, you know, whatever, but he's like, because what people are hungry for across the board is cause you know, you mentioned all those like very masculine leadership attributes.

He was saying, I think we need leaders who are willing to be flexible and to feel things and to. To not be so dogmatic and put ideas over people. And he was like, for everything that I have experienced with the women in my life and the female leaders in my life is that they are way more attuned, either conditioned to that way by society or naturally whatever they tend.

He's like, I think that women tend to be way more attuned to that. And I think we're going to see. More and more people wanting to sign up for that kind of leadership moving forward. And he's like a Safeway, something I want to sign up for, which I thought was very interesting. Um, because I do think it's kind of true, like those elements of vulnerability, those community elements, you know, I mean we could talk about, yeah, yeah.

I don't know. Hmm. What are your thoughts on that?

Mel: Well, I, I mean, I love that, that Chris is recognizing that. And I think that what the temptation is, whenever we hear stuff like that, it's like, okay, make all the women lead all the things. Right. I don't actually necessarily think that that's healthy either.

No, no. Right. Like, so I'm absolutely a feminist and I believe that women need to take up. Where more position in our society and via Lloyd and given access to way more autonomy and where more, um, you know, positions of leadership and in lots of different areas, of course. Um, but this isn't about swinging the pendulum the other way either.

No, but I absolutely think that people are gonna. Respect and understand that a more feminine or female model of leadership as an absolutely healthier for everybody kind of way to do things. Gabby: Yeah. And I don't think he was suggesting that, you know, that men were going to have no place in leadership. I just think.

Leadership in general has been typically or historically very male dominated. And I think he was just saying, and I guess I agree with him, like let's make more room for more female leaders because they have a lot of them tend to have a uniquely. Or like an, like a new way, newer way of doing things that is beneficial to a lot of people.

And I think he has also as, as women have, but allowed and have fought for, um, more positions of leadership in recent times, like he's really enjoyed being under their leadership and that isn't something that he's had as much access to. Outside of, and he, I think he always talks about he's like, I think it's so funny.

Cause like so many of the women, so many of the people that I really look up to in my life who have shaped me, they're all women. And I'm not saying again, I'm not saying like pendulum swing swings the other way, but it kind of goes back to that idea at the beginning of like, we're all always leading someone and.

Oh, yeah. I don't know. I actually didn't have a, a concrete bow to tie on that thought. It was...

Mel: but also, and in terms of that pendulum swing, I think the other thing that I wanted to say about leadership is that, and certain S. In certain circles, the glamorization of one side of the pendulum on the other extreme of the pendulum, it, um, is really dangerous to you.

So like I've seen, um, certain types of leadership where it's all about like the leaders of the martyrs, you know, like they, they give everything and service of everyone and. You know, like that kind of like martyrdom leadership is exalted, right. Or more this other side where leaders are completely expect and everybody else to be a dog's body and to, um, to do the heavy lifting of, of their work.

And I think that it doesn't have to be, um, It doesn't have to be either or as well. Um, you know, I think that integrity is everything and, um, we can take responsibility and also lead well, you know? Um, yeah, and just. Not be entitled to enough, you know, not have a real sense of entitlement. I think that's the, that's the worst, in fact, that's exactly what I've written, entitled leaders are the worst. Gabby: They are, man. That is, that's true. For sure.

Mel: Yeah. Like when you, and yeah, I think that it's, it should be hard work in terms of, if you, if you're. Emotionally intelligent. And self-aware, it is going to be hard work too late. Yeah. Because you're going to be, um, questioning and, and making decisions that don't just serve you.

Right. Like I think, and I think that, um, that's really important to consider as well. Is that selfish? I think self-awareness is massive. Do you know?

Gabby: Oh, yeah, definitely. I mean, I think you could say that for like any sphere of anything, self-awareness always enhances your experience of something. But I do think that that is something that. It was really hard to do. Like that's the first hard step is being self-aware because it means you have to confront things about yourself that you might not like yeah.

Mel: And, and recognize your own capacities, but that's also liberating. Yeah. We fue kind of turn around with that idea. Like when you re, when you recognize your own capacity, there's opportunity there to bring other people into your leadership until like, have a kind stability, um, and be supported and all of that beautiful stuff.

Like, yeah. I have, I have really enjoyed the process of learning my own capacity because I'm like, Oh, I don't have to do everything. Okay, cool. Let's see who else can help with this.

Gabby: But do you think that like, and I think most people who have done any kind of leadership. And especially in a formal way, a formal setting probably pick up on that pretty quickly.

But I do think that sometimes it can be really tempting to pretend that those limitations don't exist and not because you aren't self-aware enough to like to see them, but because you're afraid that people will not, I mean, not like stop following you, but. I don't know, like this society has maybe conditioned you to think that you can't have weaknesses or you can't have capacity that, you know, I don't, does it make sense?

Mel: Absolutely.

And that's, that's why it's like, uh, like really examining what leadership looks like. It takes a real cultural shift. Yeah. Because we've, we've got to normalize. That everybody has capacity that every leader that, or every person in a position of decision-making or leadership or influence has limitations to their emotional capacity, their physical capacity, their intellectual capacity, um, and that.

The sooner that we recognize that the better, the sooner that we normalize that the better and kind of release some expectations, um, around, around leaders and what they should, and shouldn't be. Yeah. Um, Although, although there, I reckon there is a baseline standard as well. Right. We can't just be like, Oh, you, you abused loads of people.

Oh, that must've been part of your capacity. No, absolutely not. Um, and I think that's where the responsibility piece comes in, you know, of like, Uh, if you want, if you want to be a leader, if you want to have people, listen to what you say and get on board, the ideas that you have and the way you want to do things, and you need to take some radical responsibility for who you are and for expressing your capacity and when you get things wrong.

Gabby: Yeah. Do you think that when we step into leadership roles that we. Like our default is to emulate the kind of leader that we wish we had. Hmm. Do you know what I'm saying?

Mel: Like as a parent, how you end up kind of maybe trying to fill in the gaps of where you didn't necessarily. Yeah. You know, sail, parented in some way.

Gabby: I mean, it kind of goes back to what you said about the like, not swinging over swinging the pendulum, but like, I don't know. I feel like for me, one of the things that is super important in leadership is seeing and listening to other people. Yes.

Mel: And yeah. Is that because you had an experience where you felt not seen it yet.

Gabby: Exactly. Yeah. And so then I'm like, but you know, is there like an over-correct that can happen? I don't know. I mean, I'm just kind of thinking out loud now.

Mel: That's a really good question. That's a really good question. I don't think it's necessarily. I think if you're self-aware enough, You're bringing all of that stuff because you're putting pieces together of your own experience into this version of what you imagine is the leader that you needed.

Um, That would have made things better and the position that you were in. And so you want other people to experience that too? Um, I don't know if it's, if it's an over, if you're a self-aware I don't know that it's an over-correct. Um, as long as it's not a fixation, you know, the only thing that matters, um, I reckon a therapist would have a lot to say about that.

Gabby: Wait, you're not my therapist?

That's not what we're doing here every week. I wasn't sure.

Mel: Um, yeah, but like, yeah, it's, and it's really hard because it then creates this. Like, when we talk about leadership as this other, you know, really accountable, really responsible, um, Recognizing capacity kind of thing, but really just going like, okay, these are, this is just another human BN with whomever just is, you know, feels more freedom and autonomy to express her ideas.

More publicly, like, is that, I mean, is that what kind of move someone I'd have, um, follower to later? Whoa, that's an interesting idea.

Gabby: Interesting question.

Mel: Like what actually, what is a leader? May it, or as a leader, a natural thing. Ooh. What do you think of that? Do people have natural leadership?

Gabby: I think there are some people who do have natural leadership tendencies.

Cause I, I know, and I, I guess, I mean leadership in the very like classical sense, not in the, we all lead someone since which I mean still counts. It does count, but I know tons of people who actively avoid the spotlight because they don't want the burden of that responsibility. They just want to like.

They're happy to just not more than happy. They, all they want to do is they want to just impact their sphere and they, and they, and a lot of those, a lot of my friends. Who are like, this would even tell you where they're in, where they believe their perceived influence ends. Like they would be like, well, that's not my problem because that person, like that person is going to do what they want to do. And I'm just going to like the, for me, like me and my house and my family are we're gonna do this. And, um, so I do think there are people who are actively avoid that. But I do think at the same time, Social media has definitely played a role in who we perceive to be leaders. And this is where I can really nerd out.

If you, I know you nerd out over like leadership and community building that is not my expertise, but when it comes to communication and when it comes to social media and media impact, I could talk about that all day.

Mel: Well, that's a form of leadership that is massively important. So I'm here for that.

Gabby: I do think social media has kind of created leaders out of all of us.

And you know, that is why when like, that is why we are encouraged to use our voices and our, our platforms. There's no platform too small. It's why micro influencing is a concept. It's because they're going to, even if you have 400 people who follow you on social media, there's going to be 10 people, at least in that group who are going to really want to know what you have to say about something, you know, and that's, that can be.

Converted into money or influence or movement or action or whatever. So, yeah, I do think social media has kind of made leaders out of assault. Whether we want to or not.

Mel: Well, I wonder if that just as an overall concept is actually a really, I mean, we're not necessarily all prepared for that, the outcome of that, right?

Like we've seen how that's gone down really badly where people are like, well, I didn't ask to be a later, I didn't ask to be a role model. Um, yeah. And I'm like, Oh, well you kind of commodify. this space. So in doing that, you, you mean you are so, and this is why I feel like, yeah. I feel like this work is so important of rind self-awareness and responsibility, because if we're going to move with high social media is and realize that each of us.

Are creating these platforms for something like a platform is literally something you step onto to speak, right? Like that's, um, that it's so important that we, and I think that can be, if we, if we allow people to learn and grow, that can be a really powerful thing, right. That we, that we are all then.

Raise in our collective consciousness around having a voice and being able to influence.

Gabby: Yeah. Well, I think in like, it's also okay, as a leader to say that you don't know something, you know, so if you, if people come at you and are like, well, I thought you should say this about this. And you're like, well, I, maybe I have owned this area of leadership of my life, but I actually don't know enough to speak to this other area.

That's okay to say, well, I just don't have expertise in this area. Or I don't know about this. I don't have experience. I don't have enough experience in this realm too. Speak knowledgeably or compassionately about that. And that is also good leadership because you're not incredibly not. Yeah. You're not leading people down a path you've never been down before.

Um, and it's again, like acknowledging your limitations is good leadership and that's. Yeah. It's okay to say you don't know something or that you're still learning something or, you know, point people, like, I mean, at the very least you can point people to other people who know things about things, you know?

Mel: I don't trust anybody who says that they like can speak eloquently, compassionately and knowledgeably about everything.

I don't trust that at all.

Gabby: Yeah. Yeah.

Mel: You know, and I think the, again, this is a bite recognizing our capacities too, which is just such a human thing to offer each other and could really turn the table on so much toxic leadership. Yeah. You know, and creating a kind of ability and compassion and responsibility, an empathy.

Gabby: So you're about to say you're about to start leading something. Let's say it's, um, let's say it's a small business and you are going to hire one employee, two employees. What is the first step in your opinion, to cultivating a good community culture as the leader of that group?

Mel: Um, so for me, it, it would be up by recognizing that these people are not just here to work for me, but that their whole human bands with stories and lives and relationships, that impact how they show up to me. It's it.

Gabby: I, I feel like. Everyone who's going to listen to, this is going to be like, Oh my gosh, I wish my boss was like that.

Mel: Well, and this is the beauty of having your own business is you get to create the things that you needed as a, as a person when you were, you know, just like you said. Um, I'm not sure that I get that right all the time, but that is my, that is a goal.

Yeah, it is to make sure that the work environment that I create for the women that I employ and the women that, that like come into, into the different businesses that I have, you know, that I met the projects that I run, the programs I run, et cetera, that they're not, they're not just, um, reduced or compartmentalized.

And that, that can be quite hard for people who have. Previously worked in environments where they're, you know, they're only sane as the person in that role. They're not saying us a full human being with shit going on at home with, you know, hard stuff happening personally, that really impacts who they are, you know?

Gabby: And it, it definitely impacts mental health to not. To like, have to divorce those areas of your life from each other. You know, that's, that's hard work.

Mel: It is hard work and, you know, I think, yeah, I think that everybody deserves to have, um, an employment opportunity or. To, to follow or be part of something where they're saying full purse.

Yeah. You know, um, because I, I guess I, I want that for other people because I want that for myself. Yeah. Yeah. That's well, you know, it was such a beautiful, a beautiful thing even, um, in February, whenever my friend passed away, um, And I was going through like, just really raw grief, my friend, one of my closest friends who, who actually worked for me, you know, she was my, my sidekick and, and freedom acts, uh, for like eight years.

And, you know, we, we journey together in lots of ways personally and professionally, and she passed away. Um, um, I was leading this, this group, this accelerator program that I run it's like at women, um, and a really intimate program. And it was coming towards the end and this, you know, it's the end is usually a time where there's just a lot of momentum and unpacking and I just really struggled.

To you to show up and sweat and switch that on and that way. And I had to be super upfront with them and honest with them. And I was really worried about that. I was really worried about, um, You know, telling them that I was so sad. Yeah. Yeah. Which is crazy. Isn't that like to be like, uh, you know, you've paid a lot of money to be here and I want to make sure that I'm switched on for you and that you're getting everything you need out of this.

Um, But also here I am as this human who has experienced this loss and it's just so sad, so sad. Um, and they just showed up for me. Hmm. Like they were amazing. And that's what I mean about recreating. I wish I'd said this at the beginning, because this is what I made. So sorry if you've just got to this and you're like, I wish you'd said that earlier, but this is what I mean by recreating what it means to be a leader that you can, you know, you can like you're that there is no threat or rind your.

Humanity right. That your productivity, your output, um, isn't the only metric that you're judged by or approved of, you know, within your leadership role, but actually your humanity is factored in to all of that as well. And I guess that's what Matt may, whenever I was able to kind of gather the courage to be really honest about what was going on.

Gabby: That's so good. Yeah. I mean, I'm sure that did feel so scary because yeah. Like, as you were like sharing, I'm like, I totally, I would, I would feel the exact same way and have the same exact fears, but really I'm sure what it, what it did for those women was actually live out an example of. How you can be fully human and all the spheres of your life and still, you know, be, be worthy, you know? And that's, that probably was really powerful for them.

Mel: Mm. It was, for me, it absolutely was for me. And it just, yeah, it just showed me that that's, that. That, when we create that environment, I guess we've got to execute and I might have self-trust that we will be met with that same compassion and understanding.

And as a leader, In that space as well, but it has to be fostered, you know, in order to, in order to expect it. So, yeah. Yeah. Well maybe that that's a good spot to leave it on. Um, obviously we are not the gurus on this. But we just find it. So, I mean, it was pretty a pretty ramble-y conversation.

Gabby: I feel like that was my fault.

So I'll just go ahead and take ownership for that.

Mel: Oh, I loved your rambles. It really set me off on different thinking paths, but, um, yeah, we, I was always really keen to hear your thoughts, your emails, your DMs. Um, so feel free to get in touch with us at any stage. Yep. Until next time until next time.