Episode 17: How Our Faith And Spirituality Evolves

>>> Click here to read the computer generated transcript (note that the transcript isn't perfect)

Gabby: Welcome to the making an effort podcast, the podcast where you get to drop in on a conversation with two friends, discussing all the things they make an effort with. And some of the things they don't, uh, Oh, well

Mel: stupid at the minute. I'm in a really good mood. Just made me laugh before we hit record. I psyched her on I'm like giddy and we have to talk about, sorry, Gabby: talk about this. However you want to talk about it. Because as I mentioned, this is a conversation between two friends. We're not, we're not professionals. We are just shooting. The breeze and talking about essential issues.

Mel: Oh yeah. Massive foundational parts of it.

Gabby: And yes, if you have not guessed by the title and are rambles so far, we're talking about faith and spirituality. Um, and specifically some of the ways that has changed for us over the years. And we want to hear from you guys, and we did actually, um, send out a call-out for you guys to be a part of this conversation. And you many, many of you did send in your voice memos. We will not be able to include all of them today. Um, but we did pick a few that we felt like. A lot of people could maybe relate to, and we're going to talk about them.

Mel: we are. Thank you so much. If he did send us, um, a voice memo that honestly, like, it's so amazing to us, that people take the time to do that. And we have listened to every single one and. Yeah, you guys are also wise and generous and your, and your ability to articulate where you're at with this. So, um, even if you don't hear your own voice in this episode, just know that it has meant a huge amount to Gabby and I to hear from you. Yeah.

Gabby: Um, so part of why we wanted to talk about this issue is because when we. The these issues is this is getting like, it's like a newsroom, you know, very serious. Uh, but why we wanted to talk about this is because this is something that we are talking a lot with our friends about, and we thought we would. Open the conversation a little bit wider and include you all in that. Um, both of us were raised in Christian traditions. And so what a lot, a lot of what you're going to hear today is going to be spoken from that experience. And most of the people. If not all of the people who sent in voice memos seem to also have been raised in Christian traditions. So we're not trying to exclude other religions in this conversation. Um, we realized that questioning your faith and re-imagining it, isn't something that is exclusively a christian phenomena. Um, I personally follow a lot of Muslim thinkers and writers and activists, and they are having the same conversations about their faith. And I'm sure it happens no matter what you believe it, you always are gonna end up reexamining things and tweaking things. And, um, just seeing if they still serve you.

Mel: Yeah. I think that's the. I mean, that's the hope, isn't it? That we, that we feel like we can do that. And it's probably going to be a big component of what we cover here and this and this chat today. Uh, so what we're going to do is, um, yeah, we're going to just spend some time, listen to your thoughts and just kind of chime in, in, I guess yeah. Our own , our own experience, uh, within that, um, Yeah, so we kind of will fade off. We're going to feed off of your thoughts today. That's what we're going to do and chat about this. And we haven't really discussed a whole lot of what we want to say separately. Um, so this should be fun.

Gabby: Yeah. And I think too, maybe it's worth saying like, you know, this, isn't our objective in this podcast, isn't to poke the poke holes in people's belief systems, you know, At least for me, like I never want to tear down something, someone else holds sacred. I want to honor that. Um, and, but what really, all we're trying to do is. Kind of rally around this common experience that it seems like many of us have in our midlife where we, we just kind of reevaluate some things and see if they still serve us. So that's the, Oh, that's the only point of talking about all of this. If you are not on board with that, or if you are at a different place, that's completely fine too. Okay. We're not, um, trying to call your belief system into question at all. We are just trying to be friends for the journey no matter where you are at in that journey. So,

Mel: yeah, and we are also not offering answers make that a big caveat at the beginning. You're absolutely. Absolutely not here for answers. So you just watched a listener drop off right there. Um, yeah, we're really not. Okay. So shall I read out? Yeah, our first one. So the first one is, uh, a written submission that came from Ange in Canada.

"Hey Gabby.Hi, Mel. It's Ange from Canada calling." Um, That made me think of two, that episode of friends, where they have the English friend and she's like, Oh, Monica is, Oh, what was her name? Like, it's something calling

Gabby: I forget. Yeah. But I always feel like that friend because I'm surrounded by all these Northern Irish people and my accent changes. And I like my friends, my American friends make fun of me because one of the. Like UK isms that I've totally adopted is, is saying holiday instead of vacation. And I don't know why, it just makes more sense to me to say it that way, but I do always feel like Monica, you are that VR

Mel: that push mobile anyway, and get me on my mobile. Yeah. Okay. So Ange from Canada says: "As a child and young adult, the I'd come of sin held such devastating consequences. It was hard to separate normal choices without going through rigorous checklists of will this me an eternal torment or not? I remember so many times my natural curiosity and questions were shut down and I felt this deep shame for acting on my instincts and then getting told they were wrong. Unlearning that, and really moving out of a fear based mindset has really allowed me freedom to trust my own instincts and make my own choices. What I love now is I have so much freedom to practice my faith and what feels right to me and not from a place of fear or guilt or shame."

Thanks so much for these beautiful conversations that you share with us.

Gabby: yeah. That's going in deep, right,

Mel: at the start, right to the point. Absolutely. Yeah. So lots of, lots of thoughts around, around guilt and shame and internal torment man alive. I know. Yes. You relate to that. I

Gabby: definitely do. I. Yeah. I don't know. It's hard to know what part of that I want to talk about, but I guess that what I would want to say is I do think that that intensity, that, you know, kids are taught like that when she talked about not being able to, um, follow her natural curiosity or trust herself, that's the part of that whole thing that really makes me feel. Just so like, I do relate to that, you know, where you're just like, I feel like, and I think most of our parents who raised us in this tradition would say, you know, they just wanted to provide healthy boundaries for like an, like an, a code of ethics to live, you know, and navigate through the life that we're going to protect us, that we're going to keep us safe and happy and healthy, but. At the same time. I think that it can also kind of feel like the stakes are just so high. It's like, right. And go to hell. You're like, well, I got, will I really go to hell though? Well, like, you know, there's just a lot of things that you can really re-examine in that whole thing.

Mel: Yeah. I really, I really felt that. That. I mean, I know ONJ and actually, did you just get a notification that she started talking on our Marco polo crib, literally, as we were talking about her hair, I saw your eyes go. I was like, that's so weird. Um, but yeah, I, I know Angela and she, um, You know, she was raised in like a Pentecostal tradition where like Sin and hell, like hell especially was, is such a big theme. Right. Um, and I, I mean, it is in so many evangelical communities and cultures and whatever, and I absolutely remember being terrified of hell and like, That that been pretty much the main driving force behind so many of my behaviors and, you know, like the consequences of the, you know, that was, that was drilled in that that was the consequences. And, you know, I absolutely like absolutely do not want my children to know anything about that. Like Hmm. I have no interest in continuing that narrative into my own family at all at all. It just is. Yeah. It's just not something that I'm interested in, but I, I really love the answer is find a way, like she explains to work out her faith in. Her own way without that guilt and shame attached to the consequence of her curiosity, boy. Yeah. That's a big one. Yeah.

Gabby: I think one of the things that I think about a lot of times when it comes to these, this topic in particular is because. Because we often have many of us were raised with a lot of shame and guilt around the idea of curiosity and learning and asking questions. It really doesn't allow you to grow out of an authentic place because you can't. You can't actually grow and change if you're not being real with yourself and starting from that place of like, well, this is who I am, right. Like today right now. And these are the things I'm interested in. They're like anything that happens out of like an inauthentic space isn't real growth. It isn't real. You know, transformation. And so I just think sometimes that is like the most devastating part for me is I see people and myself included who don't feel like they're given the freedom to really. Be who they are. And I'm like, well, how can you expect people to thrive in that environment? Um, or like if they were being told that who they are is shameful. Um, like you can't thrive in that you can't grow in that you can't absolutely not.

Mel: No. Um, you can't grow in it. And it's also, it's also completely damaging and abusive. I would go as far to say, you know, for someone to live their life, In a, in a real spiral of shame from, from people who are supposed to lead and nurture and protect them, whether that's in the church or in their home and all of that, like it's really detrimental to your humanity, you know? Um, which I think is why so many people are kind of like pulling apart what they were handed and go in. Whoa, this was damaging, you know? Cause when you're in, when you're end the damage, you don't really often realize cause it's all, you know, but yeah, yeah.

Gabby: No, I think that's good and yeah, I think that's great. Should we listen to Rebecca's?

Rebecca: I think the, um, the biggest thing for me has been a, since having kids, I just find it impossible to engage with Sunday church. Um, you know, we go in while there's worship going on with chasing a three year old around the hall to try and keep him quiet so that he doesn't disturb everybody else. And then, you know, we need to be out with him at crash or we're on the rotor for Sunday school or like, They reached a point where it was a year since my husband and I had sat together through a sermon and months, since either of us had cited in a tool because week after week, one of us was dating with potty training. The other one was on the rotor for something. And I think sitting back doing COVID has made us go, do we want to go back to that? Um, but also for me, like I grew up with parents who were ministers. Church on a Sunday is non-negotiable. So if I don't go to church on a Sunday, what does that mean for my relationship with God? How do I continue to engage with his word and be taught? How do I be held to account if I'm not part of a worshiping community on a Sunday, but also if I can't engage with it, if I who've always gotten to church, find that so difficult, how can I possibly expect church to appeal to, or attract. Any of my peers who are in a similar stage of life to me. And, um, I don't have the answers to that, but that's definitely where I'm at with my kind of spiritual journey. And I'm really lucky to be part of a church that is asking some of those questions. And I hope that I can be part of looking at how we do that, but I'm certainly, I feel very differently about church and therefore about my relationship with God than I did, um, four years ago.

Gabby: So if we didn't mention already, that was Rebecca. Um, and I think there is a lot in that recording that we can unpack. Sure.

Mel: Yeah. I mean, I will go ahead and say, first of all, I haven't even said that this is not. This feels like a really vulnerable conversation for me to have so publicly, because it's not something that I, this is not something that I talk about a whole lot on my social media and that kind of thing. Um, but I get asked a lot about it. Um, in DMS and stuff. Are you still a Christian? Do you, do you still go to church, blah. Wow. So it's, it's. I kind of, haven't really said that this is a, this feels vulnerable to talk about publicly, but, and saying that I'm I'm, I feel safe with you and this is our space. So we get to be honest, um, all the rest of it, but like, we, we stopped going to church probably I would say eight years ago. Just when Levi was small and for similar, for similar reasons at the beginning, I guess, um, to what Rebecca was talking about. Like there was literally no point in terms of, and I know you have a little bit of a different experience to this Gabby, but, um, like for us it was like, well, we don't get to like, be part of anything. Our lives are kind of ruled by this tiny person and. Their sleep schedule on their feeding schedule and their energy and all of that kind of stuff. Um, so it, at the time, like that was, it was just like, nah, this is not, this is not what we need. And then I would say we kind of have dipped in an EIT a little bit since then. Um, but, but absolutely do not feel connected to the church structure as it is, uh, over the last. Many years. So I kind of, I really released a Rebecca, um, and that this part of her journey, um, especially with young kids and how difficult it can be to feel connected into something, um, when your time isn't your own, you

Gabby: know, it is, I think a man that this season of life is so high stakes when it comes to building community like a spiritual community with people, especially in the traditional. Evangelical church context. I don't know if that's the context that Rebecca is writing from, but that was definitely my, my experience. Like when I w when I, well, before COVID, when I was going to church, it was so hard because like Chris would be on tour. And so it would be just me, like schlepping myself out the door. With a child who was like, hopefully well, rested and fed, and wasn't going to have a tantrum. And then like, you know, you just kind of have to, like, when you're a parent, you just kind of, you know, you don't get to just like, hang out and say hi to people or connect with people. Um, you just kind of file in and file out. And, uh, that was my experience anyway. And. After a while. I was like, why, why am I killing myself doing this? I'm not connecting with anyone. I'm like, I can hear a sermon, like somewhere else if I need to. Um, yeah. And yeah, it is, it's a struggle, but I think even on a bigger, like some of those bigger questions that she asked, I think a lot of us are re-examining the role of church in our lives. Um, In a post COVID world, not necessarily, I mean, potentially that we, whether or not we want to be involved in one. Um, but also just like, is it working for me? Like, is this, is this structure that I have like signed up for? Is it just a social club? And if it is like, if it is just a social club that I've signed up for. Then is it worth it more? Is it something more than that? And if it is, you know, what does that look like? I don't know. I think, I think there's a lot of things about the ins and outs, because I mean, I would still like, I, we, we have not been going to church during COVID, um, And I think both Chris and I desire to still be a part of HR church. Um, and we're trying to figure out where that's going to be, but it is also still. Calling into question. Like I F I've had a lot of questions about how the structure of actual church works and why I have never questioned it, questioned it before. Um, I met with my sister the other day and we were talking about church and she was like, I just wish that you didn't just have to file in and sit down in a chair and then file out. And I, that's not serving me. And then if you want to like, have any kind of community in your faith, you have to go sign up for another meeting of some kind of like smaller group discussion. And I don't have that kind of time. Why can't I just do that at church? And I was like, yeah, why can't you do that at church? Why have we like signed up for this structure that doesn't really allow for people to connect? On a Sunday morning. Anyway, I'm getting I digress, but

Mel: I think some, no, I think this is a really, really valid point and what it leads me, and this is kind of where the, the path of my thoughts have been over the last number of years is, you know? Okay. So yeah, we file in, we stand there and sing songs. You know, to all facing the same way towards the stage. And then we file out and, or we hear the sermon and we find a light or we have a chat at the end, and then yeah, you have to sign up for some other thing to connect in and get to know people and stuff. And sometimes I'm just like, feels like the church tries to create these structures. To kind of serve a purpose of community or, um, hospitality or, um, yeah. Reaching out into their communities and all this kind of stuff where people have to sign up and it becomes this added on thing that they have to do. Um, instead of like promoting that this, this is just how you should live your life. Like this is actually just what you're. Your human experience should be actually is, is, um, creating community with your friends and people different to you. Like it doesn't have to be a tick box thing where evangelism tick discipleship, tick community, tick Edward service tick, like, yeah. Stop trying to make those things, extra things for people to do in their lives and start like enabling and empowering the people who want to learn about God, about how to do that. Just as a person yeah. In there and their

Gabby: life, their real life without like having to sign up for stuff and you know, all of that.

Mel: Yeah. And that way I totally get what your sisters say. And I just feel like the S the model of. Church on a Sunday and then a bunch of programs feels unsustainable for human beings and their lives. Yeah.

Gabby: Yeah, totally,

Mel: totally. I don't. And I don't have any answers of why, what else it could look like? I mean, I have thoughts, but I don't like I, other than just really encouraging people to not feel pressured, to be. To like serve, be part of this, sign up for this, do this, um, in order to belong. Yes. You know, and that's, yeah. I guess that's been my experience as well, and even, and then reflected back to me. And when I stepped, we stepped out of church. Um, it was like, okay. Everything that we thought was community has kind of dissolved. Wow. Right. So as in, and it's nobody's fault, but it's just the way that the system has been set up so that people don't really know how to be in relationship outside of this context. Hmm. Yeah. That's this is what you've done. You've opened open door to these calls for this conversation. I know I'm going to say stuff.

Gabby: Damn it. So I love that you're saying stuff because I think that's such a good point is yes, church. It at its best can be a helpful tool, but not the main event when it comes to community and connecting with people on a deeper level, we should be able to do that with people in our real lives. And I think, yeah, I think that, you know, yeah, no, I think that's good. All right. This is from Savannah.

Savannah: My faith I've gotten older, has. Definitely changed in its rigidity. I think, um, when I was younger, I needed more parameters on everything. I needed more rules. And I think as you get older, those parameters sort of break down and it allows you, at least in my experience to experience faith a little more fully and with, with a wider understanding.

Mel: Hmm. Okay. So I have a little analogy that came to me today. Well, it's something that I've talked about before, but in relation to what Savannah sat here in terms of like parameters and rules and all of that kind of stuff, like, I don't know about you, but my kids, well, mostly Levi have gone through like a big Lego stage, right? Like, and. It often, like it was often this like wanting to buy these sets, right. That have all the paces and then this like the instructions and you, you do want step one, step two, step three. And then it creates this like, whatever, like a star Wars, something, I don't know, the star Wars sports, um, or whatever it is. And excuse me, as I was thinking about, you know, faith, I just. Like I remember Levi grew an item of the kind of box thing and like everything. So we would have all of these boxes of these Lego sets with the instructions and then he would build it and then he'd be super bored because he's yep. It's died. It's done. And we never kept the boxes. We never kept the instruction. So then if he wanted to just like pull it all apart and it was all the pieces were kept in this Lego had. Container thing. And there were people who know what I mean by that, that are listening to this a Lego head container, because that is a thing. But anyway, you know, I just remember this is a few years ago when he was smaller and more interested in Lego, but like that box of all the paces provided so much more for him and his. Play. Yup. Then the 10 minutes it took him to do one set. Right. And so he could build with his imagination. He could create, he could add stuff in, he could change things around, he could take this birth that was supposed to be in another bit and put it in this other creation. And I feel like that is what has happened with my faith as well. Is. I've been like, Whoa, the reels feel like, like there's only one, one way to do it. Like there's only one thing that I can be created out of this, but actually, I, I love the average change in Lego paces of what my faith looks like now with Odin, that step-by-step thing or that the, what gets to be included and what doesn't and what, what is actually. A master pace or what actually looks beautiful and what doesn't, um, I guess to God or the divine, however you want to talk about it. And it just feels like there's so much more play and freedom and beauty and ability to create and include when you forget about that. Yeah. Those parameters, you know? Yeah.

Gabby: I. I so relate to that. And I think the reason why I really wanted to share this one is because for me, anyway, when I was younger, I want to say in my early twenties, particularly, it really liked the idea of feeling like the world was a little bit more black and white or like the universe. And the way it works is, was a little bit more black and white. And that. There's just like, I just need, I just need to find out what I need to believe. And then I just need to do those things and it's going to be good. But then you actually have life experience and you realize that the world isn't black and white, it's colorful and many shades of gray, and you're trying to fit a face. That is that really isn't multi-dimensional into a world and a life that is multi-dimensional. And that, I mean, I think that that is kind of why any of us starts to re-examine anything is because I totally agree with you. I think that's such a beautiful analogy, um, that it goes back to what Anne said at the beginning about like following your curiosity and. Yeah. Being allowed to live in the fullness of who you're made to be with all of your questions and thoughts and you know, all of that stuff. Um, I don't know. I think that's really good.

Mel: I remember listening to a podcast episode with Elizabeth Gilbert, um, all about just high, actually the natural rhythm of the world is to be in creativity, to be in curiosity, to evolve and change. Right. And so when we resist that, when we resist that. Because of what we've been given because of what we're afraid of because of what feels shameful or what we've been told as shameful, you know, like it feels terrible. And our bodies and our like in our insides, it feels terrible. And, you know, because we are actually out of sync with what is, uh, what is, what is so natural and that, and the world is. Evolution and, and discovery and creativity and, and curiosity. And so when we opt out of that and stay in CF parameters, we are, it, it feels hard. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because we're because we're going against the flow of what is very, very natural in our world, which is that things change things. Plants grew out of the grind. They, you know, like everything evolves and sheds and, and changes and, and why should we be any different? Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

Gabby: I love, I love Elizabeth Gilbert. I was just finishing for the second or third time, big magic on audio book and Oh, so she, I could listen to her narrate anything all day. Yeah. Let's say I'm listening to her narrate. Eat, pray love Chris and I listened to that together and it was like a spiritual experience. It was so good. We basically had to like eat pizza for a couple of weeks while she was in Italy. Um, okay. Next one. Let's see. Um, Let's go to Mandy.

Mandy: I think for me, the biggest change in my faith perspective, and spirituality has been realizing that I spent the first 30 years of my life trying to TM this wildness in my trend team, all of these instincts inside of myself and labeling them as things that. Um, if I'm good, I can control push dine and make sure are well tended to, um, pushed away and kept exactly how they should be. Um, in the past 10 years, probably past few years, even more so has been the realization that. That wildness has been my liberation. And it's been where I've connected to God and to other people more than anything. And that rather than this be this uncontrollable dangerous thing, I mean, in some ways it is uncontrollable and dangerous, but there's so much goodness from it. And there's a sense of real liberation on it. Um, and. What that allows me to do is embrace all of who I am, rather than trying to dissect what's acceptable and what's not. Um, and given me so much freedom and I can see how that rather than has sent me down a slippery slope, especially in regards to parents. And that it's, that it's brought freedom and it's brought a whole different kind of way of being in the world. That feels a lot more grinded and a lot more like love.

Gabby: I loved that from Mandy.

Mel: Me too. It's just so good. It's so good. And I think even just as a, just as a woman, you know, this idea of growing up with narratives, In church culture about, I mean, we could do a whole episode and maybe we'll about purity culture and all of that stuff. Um, but just this idea of like being the good girl, you know, and, and kind of. Denying your instincts. And I guess that's some of what Ange was talking about as well is, you know, that follows us into womanhood and shows up in so, so many ways and impacts us in. So, so many ways, um, that it's, it's so important that we dissect it and understand where it's come from and yeah. Work with it.

Gabby: Yeah. I, I love that. Um, I think it's an Augustine quote, um, where he says the glory of God is man fully alive. And I do think, I mean, whether you believe in God or not, what he basically is trying to say is like, Life is like fullest when you are free to be fully yourself, uh, who, whoever that is. And I just think that it goes back to what I was trying to say in the beginning of like, you can't experience real growth and real transformation or anything real, if you can't. Be real yourself. So it's so important to be able to do that and to have a understanding of your faith, where you feel like the real you isn't just allowed, but belongs and is accepted and is loved.

Mel: Oh, and welcomed. Yeah, totally. And that's, I guess that's been another big part of my faith. Um, Story has been well, you know, what's set up for us here is very much like a who's in and who's out. And I think a lot of churches think that they don't operate like that still. And they do, you know, like I think a lot of churches and faith communities. Believe that they're inclusive and they're not. And you know, they're not, they're inclusive in their minds, but they're, they're not in their, in their actual practices. Um, for all, for all people who feel like they have a reduced access to community and to fifth spaces. Um, and, and. I guess part of may at, at the stage of walking away from the church that we went to and existed, it was like people that I love that I love and belong to me. Wouldn't feel welcome here. Hmm. They wouldn't be able to fully exist as who they are in this space and that's not okay for me to uphold that. Or to contribute to that. Um, and if I'm, if I'm gonna choose integrity here, so, you know, that's, that's been a big part of it for me as well is I'm not interested in debating with you who gets to be included and who can, who can contribute their amazing gifts to this space, right? Like I'm not, I'm not whether it's women or. LGBT or people of color or people with disabilities. Yeah. I'm not interested in who's who's not included. So, um, yeah, I'm not, I'm not interested in hearing what, what people think it needs to be teamed in order to. Yeah. Fit in or belong fully. Yeah,

Gabby: I think that is so good. And I think that that is probably, I mean from, and I don't know how it is with you, Mel, but the conversations that I have with my friends, a big part of why so many of my friends are reconsidering their entire faith. Is that very question because, because they have. Big questions about who isn't allowed and who is allowed to participate fully. And I think that that is, it's an, it's an important question to reevaluate. And I really, I think we're kind of in the, the middle of that right now, and I don't think we'll ever fully be out of it because. We don't ever just arrive. In my opinion, we don't ever just arrive. We are always growing. We're always doing better. We should be. But I do kind of think that I, my hope anyway is that with so many people asking these questions, that some of those changes are going to happen. Um,

Mel: Well the changes have or happen in any way. They are people, people of color, um, gay people, people with. Uh, disabilities, you know, all of that stuff. They are just teaching and sharing and loving and being who they are outside of those parameters and, and impacting so many people. And, and I feel like, you know, I'm kind of looking at the church and go and damn at your mess. And I, you know, like, yeah, look what you did, look what you've done. You know, like you could have. Um, really benefited from the wisdom and the, and the talents and the deep joy of these people. Um, yeah, they didn't, it didn't fit for you. So

Gabby: yeah, you are missing out. That's a perfect way of describing it as like yeah. That's exactly how I feel. Thank you for sharing Mandy. That was so good. Um, yeah. Yeah. All right. Our next. Uh, one is from Nicole.

Nicole: I'm so glad you're talking about this am on the podcast. Um, I felt I had to send him a voice note because it is such an important topic for me at the minute. I feel kind of like in of turmoil because I'm just questioning what I believe and why. And it's really difficult for me to line up some of what I've always believed. With some of the new things that I'm learning as I'm older. And I became a Christian at 15 and kind of believed everything was like Salem passion. And didn't really question too much. But now as a 32 year old mom of a three-year-old, I'm a lot more conscious of what I believe and why and what I am passing, dying to him. Um, one of the things I've been learning a lot about lately through like therapy and counseling is like the whole self-compassion self-trust. Uh, need to like, you know, honor who I am. And I feel like a lot of the typical Christianity now seats that I've been given is self-deprecating like, you know, I'm ratchet, I'm sinful

Gabby: a lot of, um, guilt and shame in there.

Mel: And I just feel like, you know, that's not something I want to be saying to my three-year-old. I don't want to be telling him that he is sinful. You know, he didn't ask to be here and, you know, his thoughts. Are from within the, he's not in control of his thoughts. Am I just, I really struggle with all of that, but I know that's such a core message of Christianity, so it kind of leaves me feeling a bit, um, I'm wondering where to go and just so many other issues as well. Like prayer, for example, like I would have like, You know, prayed with so much passion and belief and faith before, um, over the years, like I've kind of just been like, felt a bit abandoned and disheartened, um, by hi, you know, some prayers that I don't understand why God would not answer aren't answered. And yeah. Like the answers that I'm given as a young person as to why I go on, maybe he doesn't answer my prayers just don't seem to like cut it anymore. Um, so yeah, I kind of feel like I'm in a bit of like the turmoil and I'm really glad that you are speaking about this today. I love that so much. Thank you, Nicole. So much, like there's masses of minds of things to unpack there and yeah, that whole, that whole like thing I'm laughing, but it's not funny, but just that whole thing about like your ratchet and it's like, it's like, You know, it's I feel like so much of what I was taught is so Gaslight a right, like, like in worship songs and everything is like, you're, you know, you're wretched center. You're, you know, I'm not where they. All this kind of stuff. And then it's like, you go to like a weapons conference and they're like, you are worth more than rubies. Well, shit. I don't know what to believe on my shit. Or am I golden?

Gabby: What is it? There's no, in-between right.

Mel: Like, Oh, it feels so gaslighted by this, this like this way of teaching about worthiness. I'm like, I don't know. You know, that's, that is impactful

Gabby: when like, okay, if you take everything away, like we all kind of know we're all. Mostly like we're trying our best to be the best versions of ourselves, but we also realize

Mel: even I would even say we're making an effort. We are, we're making an effort.

Gabby: Okay. I don't want to be gold and rubies and I don't want to be a rich, I just want to be, is there room for someone who just wants to show up?

Mel: It just wants to be seen to making, be making an effort. We can

Gabby: just end this podcast right here.

Mel: Yeah. No, but yeah, that is, that, that really resonated with me, um, with what Nicole said and just that whole, like, Self-deprecating narrative is, and then being gaslit with, with the opposite of it. I'm like, what is, what is true? I mean, no wonder people are so confused about their. You know, capabilities and their self-worth and yeah,

Gabby: I have a lot of thoughts that I have yet to unpack about this, and I will not actually do that on the podcast today. However, I do want to say that. I think that, um, I think what she mentioned, um, I think it was Nicole, right? Um, about reexamining because you realize that. What you have believed for so long, actually isn't good enough for your kids and if it's not good enough for them, is it good enough for you?

Mel: Yeah. You know

Gabby: what I mean, though? Like it's like,

Mel: yeah, it really, and I find, sorry, go ahead. No, I was just going to say, I find the whole kind of kid's thing. I don't know about you, but like neither of my kids are very churched at all. Like, I don't know that ADA has really ever been, like, she'd never been part of a church community and. In the traditional sense, but actually it's and part of that has been quite unnerving for me in a way, because my whole childhood was steeped in like literally, literally outside of school, everything was about church, everything. There was something on every night of the week, you know, like your whole weekends are taken up with church. It was all we did. And my kids have no knowledge of that. They don't know. Like they couldn't, they can't recite scripture. Like I probably could have at 10 years old, you know, that kind of stuff. And there's part of me that still is like, Oh, is that okay? Is that okay? And I know like our, our Devon, my like, parents. Struggle with the fact that our kids aren't being raised in church. Um, and they try to, you know, slip in a little, teach them a worship song here or there. And, um, but you know, I'm, I'm kind of like, guys, we've got this, you know, we've got this. We, we absolutely want our kids to grow up with the, with the best of. What we've taken out of our experience and our understanding of God and goodness, and, and faith and love. And I'm more than believe that will make up for the nonsense of it all in our own shortcomings as people in general. Yeah. And parents, you know? Yeah.

Gabby: I mean, you just do the best that you can with what you have. And I think that is something that's actually worth bringing up too is I recently had a conversation with my dad. Um, he was in town a weekend or so ago, and we were talking about how so many people in our generation are questioning their faith. Um, and you know, they, my parents definitely raised me to be a very. Like, like, uh, a Christian basically. Um, and he asked me, he's like, I just am seeing that this has been so damaging for so many of like my friend's kids and. Is there anything I need to apologize to you for? And I was just the sweetest impulse. And, um, so, uh, here's the thing. And I, but what I actually told them was like, no, I'm not saying I'm not saying that I believe everything that my parents have taught me or taught me when I was a kid. I don't even think. And he, and he said, well, I don't even believe everything that I taught you, you know? Um, I I've changed and I've evolved, but. The thing that I know about my parents at least is they just did the best with what they had. Like they were just for him, for them, this was just what they thought was the best. And so they wanted to give that to me. And that that definition has changed over time. And I'm sure. Danny will be able to poke holes in how Chris and I choose to raise him and the things that we bring him up with. But hopefully my hope is that he'll be able to look back and be like, well, they didn't get it all right. But they just did their best. And there'll be things that I'll probably have to apologize for down the road. Um, and I do want to just take my dad's example and. And be willing to ask for forgiveness if necessary, but,

Mel: um, yeah. Yeah. I love that. I love that your dad was just wise enough to be able to in big enough to have that conversation with you. Like, there's just, that's just so rare that people are willing to renege on their, um, you know, on things and not just. You know, dig their heels into the grind. Really. Um, I mean, that's, that's, it's a beautiful thing. And I think it probably leads us nicely on to Tim. Yeah. I was going to say that too. On Tim's Tim's message to us. We got a dude in the house

Gabby: yes. And the subject line of this email is, A wee thought from a fella cutting his grass on the North coast and the thought doesn't just set the scene. I don't know what else will.

Tim: If you had asked me about, see if I was handed and grew up with, I would have been quite bitter and frustrated, tiny, narrow, and oppressive. And I viewed, I deconstructed a Fiesta that was no longer. I no longer work with my life experiences on higher C people. And ultimately God, everything changed for me when I heard the ideas transcend and include. Um, I was able to look back at some of the. The good practices and behaviors and bring them along. Um, I leave behind some of the other ways we're still including them in my first journey. And this has brought me much more peace.

Mel: Okay, Tim

Gabby: yeah, that was good.

Mel: Yeah, that was good. And whilst if you want to know more about transcend and include, you may need to contact him directly on the North coast and the North coast. Cause he's. Um, he's a wise soul. Um, and I just, yeah, I've, I've looked a little bit at what that, that kind of concept is all about. And I love the idea that we can move past stages and see the goodness in it. And. And include some of the sentiment of it as we move into the next stage of our understanding on our evolution as people and people, spiritual people, you know?

Gabby: Yeah. I really love what there's a Christian writer called Rob bell who talks about this. And he talks about having compassion on previous spiritual iterations of yourself because. Most of the time that person was just doing the best with what they had and they were just trying and you get to, you get to continue to grow and that you're going to take some of the things that you learn in each stage with you. And you're going to leave some of the things you learn in each stage behind. And that's, that is the nature of growth like that is. What it is too. Like, I think that he's like, you know, it's really easy to kind of be tempted to want to be really embarrassed by things that you used to believe or, or things that used to participate in. And then he was like, I would just encourage you to let that go because the heart behind it was not, it was more than likely not. Because you were trying to subscribe to something that was really damaging. You were subscribed, trying to subscribe to something that you thought was really good, and that was going to lead to wholeness and maybe it didn't and that's okay. That's there's no shame in that. Don't bring a shame with you on the journey. Just let it stay. And just have compassion on your previous self and have compassion for your future yourself and have compassion for other people who maybe aren't in the same place as you are, and realize that it is just a journey and we all get to be at different stages and we all get to be at a different place in our process. And that's why these conversations I think, are so helpful because we get to get insights into where other people are at. In their process and get to learn from them in a place that is free of shame, free of guilt and just curiosity, curiosity, and, wow. I really tried back up to the first point.

Mel: Boom, beautiful.

Gabby: Boom, boom. Smashed it. Smashed it. Smashed it.

Mel: Uh, I'm buzzing for you, Gabby. Well done.

Gabby: Um, it was all about me.

Mel: Oh folks. Thank you so much for less than we know. This is a longer episode than usual, but we thought it was worth giving it some more time. And again, a big thank you to everybody who contributed those that we shared and those that we didn't, we so appreciate you and your voices and your stories. And, um, if you want to. Uh, chime in after the fact, um, and give us your 2 cents and share with us your own experience. And please feel free to reach out to us on Instagram, or you can email us at makinganeffortpodcast@gmail.com and we will see you next time. Bye.