Episode 13: Normalising Death & Grief
Hi friends.
This week on the podcast we’re talking about death, loss, grief. Mel shares her story of losing her mother in depth, and Gabby asks questions about how to show up for your friends in times of grief. Because ultimately this is a podcast about friendship, and we just thought this was an important topic to cover.
We hope this episode gives you insight into how to care for grieving loved one, and even just how to walk through it yourself (spoiler alert: there’s no “right” way!)
Thanks for letting us be open and vulnerable friends. We’re endlessly grateful for you all!
>>> Click here to read the computer generated transcript (note that the transcript isn't perfect)
Gabby: Hi, everyone. I just wanted to put a trigger warning at the beginning of this episode, because we do talk about death and loss and grief in a lot of detail. So if you're someone who has to skip this episode for that reason, I completely understand. However, I have to say, this is one of my favorite episodes we've ever recorded, even though it is such a hard topic, because it's something that we're all going to experience and at some point or other, and I think it's good to normalize some of these constructive conversations around death and grief, and it's a part of life.
So. If you continue listening, I hope you, I hope you enjoy it. And as always feel free to get in touch.
Wow. Welcome to the making and effort podcast, the podcast where you get to drop in on a conversation with two friends, discussing all the things they make an effort with and some of the things they don't. And today we are talking about. Death and normalizing death and the grieving process and Mel is already chuckling.
Mel: We are so fun.
Gabby: Well, no, so,
Mel: I mean, we had a whole bunch of people after. I can't remember what episode it was, but, um, Oh, it was the unpopular opinions episode, I think. And I had a whole bunch of people message me. Cause I think I, I like rhymed off a couple of other things that I thought would be killed to talk about.
And, um, I had some people get in touch and be like, Oh, we'd really love to hear your thoughts on death or gray for. Um, I think it's so not talked about death, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I guess our, our thinking around us is that yeah, it's, it's a really taboo topic still, even though, even though it is the only.
Sure thing that we know is going to happen...
Gabby: It is taboo, isn't it? So, cause I even feel so much trepidation coming into this episode because I, so the way, yeah, I just feel like I. I'm going to say something wrong and I'm scared about saying something wrong or an, or asking questions or talking about it in a way that's going to be unintentionally offensive or insensitive.
And. I think that that's probably how a lot of people feel around the subject, you know?
Mel: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Um, I think even when you have been through loss, you still feel those feelings when it comes to someone else's loss, you know, because it, because every experience is so personal and, um, And there is no perfect thing to say or Bay.
Um, and I think that's kind of what we want to talk about today. It's a very, it's just such a very human thing that if you haven't experienced loss, you will. Yep. Um, and we wanted to make sure that, you know, we, we just opened the conversation, you know, I guess that's what we're always trying to do here is, is that, um, And it's not that I'm any kind of expert in grief.
I have not studied it. I have not got a qualification and it's, um, I just have lost some very important people. Um, have been three. Yeah. You know, part of that process, which is continual.
Gabby: Yeah, you have you've, you've had some unexpected deaths in your life. Um, and so the way that we're gonna kind of, and I actually haven't lost anyone close to me in my family or in my life yet.
And so I feel very unqualified to talk about this in any meaningful way. Um, except for. I just think that there's probably people who are going to relate to you in this podcast episode. And there are many people who relate to me. And so the way we wanted to structure this is kind of having a really candid conversation about this topic, um, where I'm going to ask you some questions about your experience and you're going to answer whatever you feel comfortable with.
And even if I ask questions that. Maybe I don't word it. Right. I think people, myself included want to know, you know, so we're, we haven't scripted this beforehand. I have a few ideas of what I want to ask Mel, but really we just want to, we want to talk about it and hopefully you guys come away feeling like you're more empowered to love the people in your life who are going through grief or feel less isolated in your own grief.
Um, I mean, yeah.
Mel: Yep.
Gabby: All right. Well, I don't know. I mean, do you feel comfortable sharing a little bit of your own story with grief and loss and death? Mel: Sure. Yep. Um, so I lost my mom four years ago today. So in the early hours of the morning, it was, um, and before that I was like, nobody, I had, I hadn't lost anybody in my immediate family.
You know, my grandpa, my grandparents had old died and that was really sad. Um, and we were, you know, we loved them so much. Um, and they were more or less at a very natural age for. Dying where it wasn't like a big surprise, really? Um, and yeah, so my mom, my mom was perfectly healthy and well, um, and. They had recent, they had moved like nine months after they had moved back from Canada to Northern Ireland.
My dad had retired as a pastor and, um, we moved back or they moved back here to kind of be closer to family and stuff. And my mom, I remember my mom was at our house and she just, she just said like, I'm not feeling great. I. I feel like I've got a bit of like an achy body and benefit a temperature and just gradually, she kind of really felt unwell the next couple of days to the point where if I'm recalling it.
Right. Um, cause it all feels a bit blurred sometimes. Um, She, she developed like this rash all over her body and so on. She was so fatigued that she, like, my dad couldn't even get her into the car to bring her up to like the emergency room. So I had to get like one of those ambulance cars to come and get her.
And she ended up being in hospital with like every test go in happening over a period of like 10 days. And they. They couldn't quite get to the bottom of what it was. It just didn't match any kind of auto-immune thing or, um, yeah, any other kind of stuff like that. And then, um, she was on some pretty high doses of steroids, which kind of often masks, I guess, like, um, What's happening and can make you feel better.
So she actually got out of hospital on my daughter's first birthday and came straight from hospital to my house for a birthday party. And then that same weekend, um, that she got out of hospital. It was mother's day. So we had, they came over for mother's day and she was still really tired. And, you know, just being in hospital and.
Not sleeping and all of us really tired. And then the couple of days after mother's day, um, she just started to decline a on, um, Ended up going back into hospital, but this time they wanted to try some like kind of harder medication. And so they, they brought her into ICU. Um, and I was a bit like, I see you, what the heck?
Like that sounds serious. And when they were very like, no, it's just because there's certain things that we want to try and do that we couldn't do in the normal ward. So anyway, long story short, what was happening was this. There was a virus that was kind of had taken over her body that nobody like it was super rare.
I mean, like one, one in, I can't remember if it's like one in 1 million people get this virus and it's like where the white, the healthy blood cells attack each other and they get confused and they attack each other. And then. Your organs start to just shut down. Um, and so that was happening by the time they figured out what was going on.
Um, the, the normal treatment for that was, it was, it was totally it really, um, they tried to like, Do all of this stuff, like they thought maybe we could do dialysis, maybe, you know, all of this stuff. So really, we didn't know the severity of it until like maybe the day before she died. Um, we just thought.
Okay. Our mom was sick. She went into hospital and they're gonna figure out what it is and then she'll get medication and she'll come home and she'll be better, like, right. Yeah. Um, but that just, it just didn't happen. And so she, yeah, so the doctors told us, like, we're gonna, we might have to intervene at her and like put her into a induced coma so that we can let her body rest. And, but there's a chance that her organs might not. Um, handled that very well. So in the end, that is what happened. So like she was, she was, um, she needed to be intubated and then her heart, her heart just couldn't handle it. So she ended up passing away, um, in the early hours of the morning. Um, And my dad and I were there at the hospital in the waiting room.
It was, it was like a scene from a movie to me. It was like, wow. Yeah. It was like, Oh yeah, that like, you're sitting in the waiting room waiting for a doctor to come in. And my, you know, it was, it was a really weird, I really weird occurrence because I, you know, my dad had been like, we'll just keep your phone on and we'll, you know, the doctor's going to call if there's anything we need to know. And, um, and I forgot to keep my phone on, like it was on silent, but then. Ada, who was a baby still at the time, like she woke up and I looked at my phone and I had all these missed calls from my dad. Gosh. And I was like, shit. Um, so I called him and he kinda, he signed it really worried and he was up at the hospital and he's like, I think you need to come up.
You know, the next ours pretty critical. So I just like, it was a metal. It literally was like three in the morning. So I just three clothes on, got into the car. Yeah. And yeah, that was so I, yeah, so I lost my mom for four years ago. Just yeah. As much as it was that she was unwell for a couple of weeks before it was entirely unexpected.
Yeah.
Gabby: I mean, that makes complete sense. I mean, uh, I'm so sorry, Mel.
I remember we had just sort of become friends online around that time. And I remember even just being shocked for you because it just did seem so out of the blue of, yeah. Just so out of the blue. I'm so sorry. Um, what I guess, so then, like for you, you know, obviously you're going through the shock of trauma and, well, I don't know, maybe not obviously.
That's a actually, maybe a good question. So like what were the emotions right after that?
Mel: I mean, yeah. Like, you know, Chris, Chris will tell you that how death is handled in Northern Ireland and Ireland in general is not like anywhere else in the world.
It is fast and furious. The, like what happens after. After somebody dies. So it's just, it's a totally surreal time.
So even, even from like, my dad and I were in the waiting room at this point, my brother still lived in Wales, so he wasn't, he wasn't even in the country, he like hopped on a flight that morning.
But, um, even like when they told us that she had passed away, Like the next thing they said was we've tie-dyed her up? Would you like to come in and see her? And I was just like, what the fuck? Like what I was like, you've literally just told me that she has died. No, I don't want to say her dead yet. I'm not ready for that.
Yeah. So, you know, I said to dad, I was like, no, can we just give it a second? Just, you know, and, um, So I think we had a cup of tea. I think they brought some tea. And then we went in and it was like, you know, we had a moment in this like cold ICU room, which was, which was just totally weird because yeah.
You know, the way. Yeah. And I've experienced this recently as well with my friend, Anita, who passed away recently. When you go to see somebody's dead body, let's just, we're just going to call a spade, a spade here. This is our podcast. We can talk, frankly, right? Yup. That's why we're here. And it literally is like th like everything has evaporated from there being yeah.
Like he, there's just nothing of them left. And you really, really sense that when you're in a room with a dead body. Yeah. Like it is just the shell of the person, huh? Right. It was so it was so surreal. I was like, that's my mom, but she's not even there. Like, there is nothing of her there. Um, and I just remember watching my dad like, um, Like taken off her wedding ring.
Oh, this is going to make me, Oh my God.
And like packing up her little suitcase.
And then we walked out of the hospital and I had to pay for his parking. Oh my gosh.
It shouldn't like that. That you're like, Um, the hospitals, could we just get a pass on this? Like surely you should get like somebody, you know, and love has died. Here's a stump to say that you get your parking for free. Oh goodness. So I watched my way, dad's like walk up to the kiosk, find a coin, you know, get a parking ticket and wheel this suitcase out of the hospital.
Um, and we went home, but like, literally that was the middle, middle of the night come in into the early morning. And within like by 10:00 AM, the undertaker was at my house to talk details. Wow. Yeah, it happens so fast. You know, we were calling round, all of our family and friends to let them know, and that's, that's a weird process to like that whole, like you haven't to tell people what's happened, you know, is really hard.
And you almost, you almost turn into the comforter right away. Yes.
Gabby: I was going to ask cause like, Obviously when it's, especially when it's unexpected like that, I'm sure people have questions and they want to know they have things they want answered and you're the only person. That can answer them, right?
Mel: Yeah. Yeah. Um, and that was, that was also weird because, so as Chris will confirm in Northern Ireland, you know, literally as soon as people know that your person has died, they start coming to your house. And so right. Yeah. They often will put out in like a funeral notice, like certain times for a wake, you know, come between 5-9 PM, but people don't care.
Like they'll just show up. Most people will just arrive. And so, because my parents had, uh, had moved over here and they bought like a modest house and it wasn't very big. Um, Not that are high suspect, but it was more spacious. Um, we had my mom's WIC at my house. Um, well, which means that no, we didn't bring her body back it remained a funeral home, but that meant that everybody that wanted to pay their respects came through my house.
Um, and the most incredible thing about that is that like, I didn't, I didn't even coordinate any of it. Like I don't re like none of us remember, but just, there's just like these little old fairy angels of women, usually who just know what to do, you know, like my mother-in-law, my sister-in-law like, they just.
Make sandwiches, they just bring their China over. They just like, wow. Clare, brooms sort stuff out because they know the score. They know that people are going to start arriving at your house. And then, and then that's when you have to begin to, like, you kind of, it's a weird thing. There's like this kind of back and forth of you comforting other people while they.
Kind of well, half their grief of the situation. And then it comes back to you. And then I'm like, if I, if I heard my dad tell somebody the whole story, once I heard him repeat that story over those three or four days, probably 50 times. Wow. It's such a intense time. Gabby: What, like, what is that experience? Like?
What are the emotions like when you're. Go like, is it helpful to recount or is it not, or is it sometimes helpful or, yeah. What does that like, like to recount the experience.
Mel: Um, I think, I think for most of us, like at the, in that it was just quite mechanical. Like we were just relaying information, abide stuff.
Like we had PR mostly thanks to social media. We've been able, and my dad had been capable of keeping people up to date via Facebook had been putting like, like updates every day to pray for part and yeah. Here's what's going on, blah, blah, blah, blah. Um, which is super fun to get as a memory every year. Oh yeah.
It's big memories are the worst. I'm the best. Um, so I think it's all, it's all just such a blur. So I imagined that over the like two or three days that my house was open, there was over 200 people, cam three. Wow cards and food, and it's pretty incredible. And in those, in that really intense, early stage of a loss here, you know, to have a complete cocoon.
Um, but at the same time I was a mom. Yeah. And I had, I was still breastfeeding at, uh, like I was running upstairs to my bedroom, like while the people were coming and going in to like breastfeed her to sleep and then going back downstairs and Oh, wow. Wow. Um, and Levi was, was Oh six at the time. Almost six.
So yeah. You know, pretty young kids who were just like, what is going on here? Yeah. You know? Um, so it was pretty, it was really quite intense. Um, and I, and it tends to be culturally here anyway. Yeah. And the funeral is pretty like, usually it's two days after somebody dies. Um, but because we had friends and family coming from England and Canada, we, we delayed it for a couple of days more, but yeah.
Gabby: So then for you. You know, you have those really intense couple of days, and then you had the funeral and then what happens after the funeral?
Mel: Yeah. Well, this is it. Um, it all just starts to kind of go back to you, some sort of new sounds of normality and, um, you're kind of left with your grief. Um, yeah. And.
It's it kind of like this, the kind of intensity of support starts to fade away. Um, which is absolutely normal as well. Right? Like everyone else has other other lives and things to go on with. Um, but I will say that there were some like really significant moments I can remember, particularly like maybe two or three weeks after where it's all still so raw.
It's so acute. In your mind, an, uh, grief is exhausting. It is so emotionally like physically so tiring. Um, yeah, and I remember somebody arriving up to my house with a lasagna, like three weeks later and it was the most. Beautiful gift. I was just like, I need this now. Like I need this I, and she had called ahead.
She just showed up. And I guess that's one of the things that I have really learned in this. Um, what, what I know I have appreciated because every single person, every person who spoke to us at that time said if you need anything. Yeah. But you don't know what you need. No. Like you have no idea what's happening.
Like you have no idea what you need, nor do you have the energy to communicate it or be needy. You're already so sad. Um, and so what I really appreciated and want to stuck with me is those people who just showed up, like they didn't, they didn't wit to be told what to do. They didn't like. And I think that's something that I would really, yeah.
I would really suggest you consider, if you have someone that you love that is graven is just show up, bring food. Yeah. You do something, you know, you're not overstepping, you're not, I think, you know, that person can say, thank you so much. I'm going to phrase this or yeah. Yeah. Of course.
Gabby: Um, are there specific things that like, you know, if your friend is, is a parent, like, are there things that you can do with the kids or for the kids in a situation that are like, you think are helpful or, you know?
Mel: Um, it's so hard because you want your kids to be around. And not, uh, not feel like you're cutting them out of, and if you're any of your grief, like we're really open about our feelings and all of those things. Even today, when my kids are going off to school, like my 10 year old was really aware of what day it was, you know? Hmm. Yeah. You know, so, yeah. I don't know.
I think, um, yeah, I mean, It always is nice to get an offer of we're heading to the park. Should we pick your kids up and take them for a bit? Yeah. That kind of thing. Like sending those kinds of texts. Um, yeah. Yeah. I mean, you want your kids to be close because it kind of is a great distraction at the time as well to not fall apart completely.
Um, Yeah.
Gabby: So I wanted to ask you, what are things that now, especially you wish that we, as a society normalized about death and the grieving process. Cause you've used that term before, when we've talked where you're like, "I want to normalize this". What does normalizing look like for you? And what do you feel like doesn't feel normal about it right now?
Mel: I think even some of the words that we, that we use, like death, dead, died. Like we dance a bite, those words so much like passed on or
Gabby: Oh, I do that all the time. I do.
Mel: It feels so awkward to say the cold, hard, dead words, you know? Um, so we don't know that it's the truth.
Gabby: Yeah. Yeah. So like, uh, this might be a really ignorant question.
So I'm like just going to. I'm just going to ask it and you can correct me if I'm wrong. thank you. So, I mean, obviously nothing can make the situation better, but for you, do you feel like a sense of, Oh, I just wish they would say that like the D word I wish they would just say dead died. Does it, does it feel like a glossing over or does it ha does it.
Provoke an emotional response, even if it's one of like annoyance, when people say things like they passed, or yeah. Mel: Well I say no. So I think it's like a wider issue, right. About how we try to, um, silver line, the whole thing. Like someone being dead is the worst. Yeah. It's the worst. You cannot like silver liner.
You cannot sugarcoat it. You cannot give me a special verse to like, you know, like it was not God's timing, like stop with all of the platitudes of, you know, God obviously texts the best and no, like that's not. Yeah, Gabby smacking her head in her hands here. Um, but those are things that people say because they feel so uncomfortable with the comfort of it all with the line.
Yeah. The painful reality that death comes and we don't get to stay here all the time in this world. We do go, we, our bodies feel and die and then we, then we, then we go, yeah. And I think that whole, the language around it and the way that we try to, um, Like soften it in some way and just be so unhelpful whenever you compare it to the reality of the depth of your, of your loss, you know, like, I don't want you to tell me that she's an angel watch it.
Like she's dead. as opposed to like, I definitely, I definitely I'm interested in mysterious things in the. Potential for, you know, for me to recognize my mom and some experience or have a sense of her in some way, I think that's totally possible. Um, but let's not avoid the real PM. Yes. Cause that's, that is part of our human experience. Yeah.
Gabby: I kind of feel like, you know, our instinct. In general in life is when we encounter something that's painful. We want to make it better. Like if you're a good person, you just want to make it better. So the discomfort comes when you know, there's nothing you can do to make it better. And so you just have to sit with it and you just have to be present and there's no, there is nothing you can say, that's going to make it better.
There's nothing you can do that is going to fix it. And I think that we, we live, this is just my opinion, but I think we live in a society that is so focused on fixing everything that goes wrong in our lives. We don't hold a ton of space for just. Existing and being present within something that is terrible.
And there is, there is no fixing for, I don't know. No. Yes. But that's where my discomfort comes as a friend or as someone who has walked alongside people going through grief is I'm always just trying to find the right thing to say. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I have to tell, like, actually just tell myself there's nothing you can say here. There's just being, and, but I, I would have definitely used to have been the person who would try and find something to say, and I think I've learned not to do that the hard way. Yeah.
Mel: You know, I really love, I really love when people just like. Aren't afraid to bring her up either. Like that's, that's something that's really, that's really important.
I think for people here who are graven, like when someone's like, Oh, what would your mom have had to say about that? Or like, uh, you know, that kind of thing. Like that's, that's so nice. Like Emmy any, um, Any acknowledgement that you're remembering her too is hugely important.
Gabby: Yeah. Oh, that makes so much sense.
That makes so much sense. And like, probably just, well, I won't make any assumptions about how that feels, but so that you've kind of touched on it a little bit, but one of the things I wanted to ask you is, and not. Because we're trying to put anyone down, but what are some things that haven't been helpful?
Cause I think that's something that I want to know. And I know it is person to person, what feels, you know, good whip, but from your community during a time of grief and loss, but, and death. Uh, but I'm sure there are things that are not helpful. What were some of those for you? Hmm.
Mel: Oh, I don't know. I mean, there are some things that I, that were not helpful that I did that I felt like.
Yeah. If, you know, if, if I, if this, if I had, when at, when I experienced this again, um, because we're normalizing that people are going to die in our lives, um, I think I will understand this, but one of the things is, um, grief, grief completely alters you as a person. It does. I think you just, you see the world differently. You, you empathize with people on a whole other level. If, if you allow yourself to do that, um, And, and also if you're not careful, you can have certain expectations of people that are unfair as well. I find, um, It really changes your relationships.
So you've gotta be really careful about, um, the expectations that you have, whether people, I would say like some of our hardest marriage stuff was happened around that time. You know, like after my mom died, because we just like on, on so many levels, I was so capable. You know, I was, so I was able to go to work and run my business on the side and put my head into those kinds of things.
And then I would come home and I would just need to have to take care of everything. And I think for him, it's like, well, why can you, why are you able to. Do all of this other stuff. And then, you know, but for me it was my safe place to fall apart. Um, but not communicating that as is so dangerous and just your expectations of, and I think P secondly, when you lose a mum and you are a mum, there's a certain, there is a certain kind of tenderness to that loss, I think. Um, and I think. For a long time. And I don't think that I've ever set the side load.
I think I was really hoping for someone, um, to stand in the maternal gap for me. Yeah. Yeah. You know?
Gabby: Yeah. Well,
Mel: when, when life, yeah. And it's not fair to have that expectation of anyone else, but you're just, you really just created, um, I'm 38 years old and I still need her, you know? Um, so I think you. I think that's like, yeah, that's, that's a big thing that I have learned as well, is that you can't put those expectations on other people to fill, to fulfill a role that is absolutely irreplaceable.
Yeah. Yeah, I him, Oh, sorry. Go ahead. I was going to say, and to do that can be really detrimental to, to the relationships that you have. That was expectations. And because it's not fair, it's not fair on those people. Yeah. Yeah, of course.
Gabby: But I mean, it's gotta be so hard because you feel this huge gap. I remember fi I remember talking to my mother-in-law. After she lost her mom. This is shortly after Chris and I actually started dating and, you know, she knows she's in her sixties and she had lost her. Her dad had died many years before and she was like, here's the thing. I still just feel like an orphan. And she's like, I know that people don't, it's not socially acceptable for.
Not socially acceptable, but I know you don't think of 60 something year old women as orphans, but that's how I feel is I've lost that I've lost those parents and you know, you still feel the emotions of
Mel: that. Yeah. It's, it's massive. Um, you know, that you just always failed, like when you have your parents alive, that you can. How have that kind of, you can enter into that child, that child role. And, you know, I guess that's all dependent on if your relationship with your parents is healthy and all of that, um, that you can depend on them. And then, you know, so night, you know, at the same time, At the same time that my mum passed away, my brother was going through a divorce.
And, um, so in our family, we lost two out of the three women in our family at the same time. And I, it was just me, Anita, but me really, she was one. Um, and so I had to kind of step into that matriarch role. Yeah. You know that like it's, and it's a really natural role for me. Like my mom actually wasn't massively matriarchal in a traditional way anyway, like she wasn't that kind of like cookies fresh out of the oven.
When you get home from school kind of mom, like incredible. And she gave us an amazing childhood, but. So it's a really natural role for me to, to take on as the matriarch of our NY FA or naive kind of new version of this, of our family. Um, but it was also the default to, you know, so, and I, I love it so much.
I really love it. And then sometimes I'm just like, okay, you can come back and, and organize somebody else's birthday, or you can, um, all of that, you know,
Gabby: And I mean, that makes complete sense and I'll yeah. Yeah. That makes complete sense.
Mel: Uh, um,
Gabby: well, that's actually all of my questions that I have. I don't know.
Do you feel like we, we missed a huge chunk of anything that you want to circle back to?
Mel: The only other thing that I want to say is, um, is that it's really complicated. It's not. It's not as, it's not as cut and dry as, um, you have lost someone and then you just mess them on. It's sad. I think that when our relationships are complex and our grief gets to be complex too, you know?
So if you're, if you're someone who has had, you know, a loss and that relationship, when that person was alive was complex and the right thing to do is. Is to grieve. I know that the complexity of grief is going to be there as well. You know? And that's the other thing I think in terms of the conversation about death and, and normalize, and that is that we tend to, again, to try and make ourselves feel better or to kind of really inject some comfort into the discomfort of it all is to immortalize the people that we've lost.
Right. And, and kind of. Hold them up as like perfect. Right. You know, and there's a certain element of respect to that, um, which is absolutely important and beautiful, um, to do it like that. But I think in your own process and, um, talking about the person and all of that, like, it would not be fair for me to immortalize my mom as an.
On flawed person, you know, ever, I'm not ever going to speak of her in a way that glosses over the fact that while we were so close and loved each other so deeply, um, we also like really annoyed each other. Yeah. We knew hi to go. Into silent treatment with each other and you know, all of that. And to pretend that that wasn't the case actually is a disservice to the honesty of our relationship, um, and to the cause of mothers and daughters worldwide, because wasn't perfect and I, I'm not perfect.
And, and so I think, you know, you can grieve all of, all of the, the parts of your relationship as well. Um, Um, and I just think, you know, like, yeah. If destiny can normalize death so much that we need to need to be able to normalize it. Every single Disney movie has a dead parent in it. It's like Disney are well on board with helping children to understand.
Yeah. Uh, that I know that there's probably a storyline in there, but it doesn't. And how you, he had, I think he did lose his parents or his mother or something like that, but, um, Yeah, it's, it's a really important thing. I think that we, that we can talk candidly and openly about this stuff. Um, yeah. And also just, yeah, and I think getting that balance right.
Of expecting that this is part of the human experience. Um, but also not feeling crippled by fear. Yeah of death all the time as well, you know, like, yeah.
Gabby: Yeah. I feel like I've learned so much by walking alongside you and some of those seasons and I I've just been super grateful. Too. Cause I just, I don't know.
I think I've just been so grateful to get to bear witness to your experience because it has normalized it for me a bit more, you know, and I know that when, when I have to walk through that, I'm going to have like, seen someone really share that part of themselves with me and that's going to make it feel.
Less scary. And I do think there is a part of it that like what we lose when we don't, when we're not open about our grief or open about the process is is that like you, and I'm not trying to, I'm not trying to put the burden on people who have lost people, but when, but, cause I don't think that's fair and I don't think that anyone should have to behave a certain way when they're grieving. However. I think one of the benefits of allowing people into that process with you is that then you create a culture that perpetuates where, you know, They get that modeled for them and they get to model it for someone else. And that is kind of how you quote unquote normalized death, you know, which is the most normal experience of all.
Yeah.
Mel: There's it makes sense. It does make sense. And I think part of that is that it wasn't, you know, it's supposed to be like experienced in community as well. You know, there's such a. You know, all over the world, there are traditions and rituals of white death that, um, you know, that's one of the things I did do after, um, my mom died as I kind of like really looked up like, Hm.
Uh, some of that stuff. And I remember listen to, um, uh, a Rob bell podcast really early on after my mum died. And, uh, he was talking to, I think it has his name's David Kassler and he's like, um, He is an actual grief expert. And he was talking about, um, that whole idea of like witness, like bearing witness to somebody, pay him on to somebodies loss and high in this like remote village.
And I can't remember where it was. It was an African country. Um, He talked about how that ritual was that when somebody died, everyone in the neighborhood and the community would go and change something in their lawn or on their porch or outside their house, um, they would move furniture around. They would change, um, pots and do all kinds of like put something or whatever, so that when the grieving person came out of their house, they could see.
But that is so emotional. Oh my gosh. Thank you. I would say that their community recognized that yeah. For you, everything has changed. Everything has changed. Um, and I thought that was really powerful, kind of yeah. A powerful ritual and a powerful, um, I guess, analogy of, of what it means to, to see somebody.
Grief. Yeah. Yeah.
Gabby: Wow. That is so beautiful. Uh, I, I don't know. I mean, maybe there's, I was just thinking like, as you were talking about that, I think sometimes, you know, obviously I love that we've normalized where we're on the journey of normalizing mental health and seeing a therapist and seeing professionals.
But sometimes I think. I have definitely been guilty of using professional help as a cop-out for showing up for people. So like, you know, it's like, well, they're with, they're talking it through with a therapist. So I don't have, I don't have a role or like they're meeting with someone to process their trauma and grief.
So, so I don't have to carry that burden as much, which I don't think I would've ever consciously maybe said that out loud until. As I'm just thinking about it now. You know, obviously I, I think that I'm so grateful for the role therapy has played in my life and in the role and in the lives of my friends and family.
But I also think sometimes. You know, it shouldn't just stay there, right? No, you know, like, it's not like, it's like, okay, you go have feel all your super hard stuff with this person, this professional, who's going to say all the right things and we'll hopefully, and, you know, do it in a really sanitized way as opposed to just being willing to get.
Stuck into the mess and B be willing to S to say something wrong and be willing to be corrected and, and just know that no one really expects you to, to get it right. And no one expects you to have all the answers because you don't. Yeah.
Mel: Oh yeah, totally. I mean, and I think I have so much more like empathy for.
You know, other people trying to be a good friend to somebody whenever they've lost someone because. You know, you really don't know what today, but there's, there's that deep, personal work of therapy of talking to a professional, having someone completely outside of your, um, your normal relationships, your everyday people to kind of bring that stuff too.
Um, which I do like, I, I mean, I'm seeing my therapist in 45 minutes. Um, so don't get a double dose of talk therapy today. And, you know, you can work through the complexities and have someone that is just entirely, completely there for you in that respect for sure. But that it cannot stay there because it's not an isolated experience.
It is something that all of us will, will go through. And the more that we can kind of. Um, let the right people into our story, into our end, our sadness. Um, I think that, you know, what equips us all better to, to deal with death. Um, um, and then equitability of it all, you know? Hm.
Gabby: Yeah, I totally agree.
Mel: So if you have a great story,
Gabby: well, I think that's just, it, there's no way there's no, there's no bow.
We can put on this episode. There's just, this is the dot.dot that's the continuation
Mel: and yeah, but thank you for asking lovely questions today. Um, for being a good friend, um, You know, we talked to, I think it was your idea a bunch of weeks ago to let you kind of broach this idea with me. Um, cause there are certain parts of both of our experiences, um, that are on our, in our lives have been.
Profound and painful that, you know, that we're, we're still in the thick of H you know, like as a mom of a child with an autism diagnosis and navigate and not as a parent, and that comes with its own grief and loss. Um, and we're gonna, we're absolutely gonna go there. I think we are at some stage, um, and this whole thing about. You know, loosen someone close to you. Uh, we want it to be able to talk, talk about it together in the hopes that someone might feel sane or someone might know how to bake a friend.
Gabby: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Yep. Well, we're so glad you joined us today and thank you for listening to our stories and listening to our vulnerabilities and putting up with our tiers.
Thank you for being a part of this, this community in this process with us, and we will see you next week on the making an effort podcast.
