Episode 37: When Friendship is Tricky

This week’s episode is sponsored by Ana Luisa. You can receive 10% off your purchase using our code MAKINGANEFFORT at check out, or by clicking the link here www.analuisa.com/makinganeffort

Friendship is wonderful, amazing, necessary and often a lot of HARD WORK.

Sometimes we can be tempted to think that if a friendship is feeling “hard” or like work that it’s not working. But just like every relationship in our lives, our relationships with our friends still take work and there’s can be a reward to navigating through some of the stickier bits.

We talk about how insecurity in friendship can be such a big issue, and what our own personal triggers are. We discuss the complexity of being in a “caregiver” season of life (children, elderly parents, etc) and juggling meaningful friendships.

And then at the end of the episode we put a call out for your “friendship dilemmas” if you want us to weigh in on the pod.

Can’t wait to hear from you all!

>>> Click here to read the computer generated transcript (note that the transcript isn't perfect)

Gabby: Hi, and welcome back to another episode of the making and effort podcast, the podcast where you get to sit in on a conversation between two friends, discussing all the things they make an effort with and some of the things they don't and I'm Gabby

Mel: and I'm Mel. And welcome. So it was like a children's TV presenter.

Gabby: That's how I do it here.

Mel: Welcome to fun time with Gabby and Mel.

Gabby: I've been watching two-ish Daniel tiger. And it shows

Mel: so Gabs. What's the conversation.

Gabby: Yes today, we are talking about something I'm weirdly excited to talk about. So today we're talking about things, we find tricky within friendships, and we've got a few things that kind of fall under that, that we think you guys are going to find interesting. Um, but. Because this is a podcast that is very much centered around friendship. We thought it would be remissed if we didn't talk about some of the stickier areas of being friends with people, um, and kind of some of the things that make friendship, you know, in the gray areas, the fun stuff. So here we are.

Mel: Um, our kind of bringing this up as like a, a thing. Um, because I think in itself that speaks volumes as to you what the temperature rating often is about trickiness and friendships, and that, you know, that there is, you know, some sort of level of. Understanding or acknowledgement that a friendship shouldn't be tricky or the, just the word friend in general should come with this whole host of meaning that, you know, it is always reciprocal. It's always respectful. It's always equal. It's always pure. Um, and I just think it's just not the case. Like I just don't know I was listening to, um, Uh, uh, Brian podcast recently. Uh, with the two girls that host the podcast, call your girlfriend. I think it's called. Okay. And they've written a book called big friendship. And so they, I haven't finished lesson to the podcast, but, um, I guess, you know, A lot of what they're talking about is this idea that in all the other relationships we have, you know, with our family, with our children, with our partner, um, there's a, there's a kind of acknowledgement to that. Those relationships take some work. Yeah. Yeah. But there's something missing in the conversation around friendship, I think, um, where we maybe think that. It shouldn't require as much work. Yeah. Or our expectations are maybe a bit skewed. I don't know if that's Hollywood or a social conditioning or just like hopefulness that maybe those are the relationships that will be easy, but it's just not the care system

Gabby: or how we saw our parents model friendship. Oh yeah. Right. To get really deep. I feel like that. You just opened up a whole host of questions in my mind there with like that, just the expectation of what do we expect from the friendship center lives. And I do kind of think. Like, obviously you don't sit down on a first coffee date with some and be like, Hey, these are my expectations. You don't

Mel: your expectations. Oh no, I completely bring a document. You must sign. This

Gabby: probably would be easier. Um, but you kind of have to find those out through trial and error, error, you know, like you find out what's important to the people you care about and you decide. Or you decide not to make them important to you as well. And I think that, that, I mean, I don't know if I have any concrete thoughts about it, but the concept of friendship being hard is an interesting one to me, because I think I have had a very checkered past with friendships. Okay. For example, I'll give you two examples of my journey to being a good friend. Okay. So I feel like I really got to know myself as a friend. Um, so like how, what kind of a friend I am to other people when I went to college and I was surrounded by friends, only you're living with them, you're going to school with them, you're eating with them, whatever. Um, and up until that point, I had assumed it was a great friend. 'cause I, up until that point I had. Mostly just begged my parents to drive me around places and for various Hangouts in their parents' basements, whatever, but being an adult and navigating friendship there's so recently Chris and I read through my freshman year of college journal diary. Oh yes, you did. Yes, publicly. It is. Publicly it's on Instagram. If you want to revel in my public humiliation and shame go for it. Um, but the one part that wasn't recorded was this part, well, Chris started reading through it and he was like, what's this what's this about? And he, and he was, I was like, he read a bit about like how someone, one of my friends, like what, like we weren't on speaking terms. Um, Which I can proudly say, this has made me like one of two instances in my whole life where I haven't been on speaking terms with a friend. Um, and, but it, it really jarred me at the time. And I, I like rolled my eyes and I was like, oh, we weren't speaking because she said I was too self-absorbed or whatever I roll. And he, he paused. Yeah, that checks out like what you're supposed to take my side. I mean, I'm really made me laugh, but I mean, it was kind of an awakening to like up until college. Like no one had confronted me with some of the areas of my life that needed a bit of shaping and no one had taught me, you know, I had never literally learned how to like. See other people in the picture. I wasn't just the center of the universe. And I feel like friends were one of those shaping things for me, like learning how to be a good friend and learning to really recognize that I wasn't the only person in a relationship like that was a real wake-up call for me. And the other one, which I, my friends and I laugh about to this day is, um, in forget in freshman year when I was learning how to be a good friend for the first. We were all sitting in my friend Megan's dorm room. And we had, like, it was just one of those moments where we were like, just enjoying our friendship together. Like, we were like, this has been so great, like getting to know each other this year and like bonding, like, isn't it so amazing. We've all found each other. We just all connect, blah, blah, blah. And my friend Megan was like, you know, I think you guys, you girls here are the girls. Like I want to have stand up with me at my wedding. And I said, yeah, if we're still friends, like from the purest

Mel: place right away, Megan's

Gabby: not like imagining anything, but what about Ben? But like, I just, I think because I grew up overseas and we moved a little. I just didn't have a lot of contexts for enduring friendships. And so in my mind, friends were very like a very transitory thing. Like they come and go there with you for a certain seasons. And in some ways that is like a really healthy, I think, a healthy way to view friendships. But that doesn't mean that you don't stick at it and work at something and try and make it last, if you can. And I mean, we're all still great friends. We did all stand up in each other's weddings. We are all going on a girls' trip in March together. So we're all still very close. Despite my predictions, despite

Mel: what pessimism of the real is level of depth that really had acrude there.

Gabby: But I feel like that those two stories really crystallized what was wrong with me as a friend in the early years and things that I've actually actively worked to change. Um, And I know I'm trying to evaluate if I've forgotten better at any of those things. I'd like to say, I think I have a little bit, but I just have to work at them.

Mel: Yeah. And this is, this is the conversation. And I know we're kind of starting with the macro thing of, you know, like the idea that friendship actually really does require our attention intentionality. Um, it requires us to. Like see somebody else and not just center ourselves. Um, it's because it is, I mean, in all the other dynamic relationships that we have, the stakes are very, very high, right? Like. The stakes are high in a marriage or a partnership, stakes are high and a parent child relationship and adult parent relationship stakes are high. When you have this kind of like blood bond with these people that, you know, you have that, uh, that have become your, your family by origin by nature. Yeah, but the stakes, I guess, and maybe there's something to this, the fact that, these are the people that we're choosing to spend our life with and share our life with. And there is that transactional vulnerability of they're not tied to me in any kind of blood kind of way. And not that that matters because you can absolutely sever a relationship that's tied by blood. Of course, if it's, um, unhealthy for anyone, but there is a vulnerability of, okay, they could, they could walk out of this at any stage. This could end, this could be. This could go away, you know? And, and so I, I do think even more so it requires intentionality and upkeep and clear communication. And I guess that's one of the things that when I was thinking about us talking around this stuff today, I was thinking about what do I find tricky and relationships. Some, you know, an often it's a rind, um, are in friendships. It's often a rind assumptions. Hmm. You know, whether that's assumptions about how somebody's feeling assumptions about, you know, how they feel about us assumptions about whether they care, assumptions about. Whether they want to spend time with us assumptions about what they're willing to do and like reciprocity and the relationship. All of that, um, I think is, is probably the trickiest for me. Is that, is that feeling of like, um, not, not always making assumptions, but like being really clear about. The importance of those people and their, their position in my life. Yeah.

Gabby: I was going to say, I feel like getting yourself out of the brain space of your own assumptions about someone takes a lot of self-work. Yup. That doesn't come naturally. At least to me, I don't think, I think it, it takes a ton of intentionality to go, oh, someone might not be feeling about the situation the same way I'm feeling about it or my feelings or my worldview. Aren't the ultimate. And I mean, I don't know about you. That's personally very, very hard for me. I still struggle with like, Not always centering, but like centering back to my experience with something, if someone shares something and be like, oh yeah, that reminds me of a time that this happened to me. Like, I still struggle with that. And it takes me like a ton of intentionality to not do that. And I still get it wrong quite a bit.

Mel: I don't know. Yeah. And there's a natural, I'm sure there's something that's really innocent and natural there. You know, about wanting to really it and wanting to connect and wanting the other person to feel like they're not alone and all that kind of stuff. And it's the self-awareness to know when that's helpful and when somebody just needs to be listened to or whatever. And I think that, you know, I think because we don't have these blood ties with our friends that often, you know, the vulnerability and the stakes are, feels like so different that it can, that the assumptions can. Go so quickly to worst intentions. If we aren't feeling secure in our friendships, do you know what I mean? Like this friend, this friend hasn't been in contact for such a long time. I imagine they're thinking X, Y, and Zed, or, um, I forgot that friend's birthday or to recognize this big thing in their life. I imagine they've put me down the list of important. In terms of friendship night, you know, all those assumptions, um, that we make because there's, there's, there's such a vulnerability to friendship and we need our friends. Like we absolutely need those relationships. Has there been, like, what do you think is the, when you think about it, When friendships kind of start to feel insecure for you, what do you feel like is at the root of that for you often? That's a great question.

Gabby: I think when relationships feel insecure to me, it's usually rooted in not enough time spent together. That's a huge one for me is I F I find myself more willing to believe the worst about someone when we haven't interacted in a long time. And that's not really fair because. You know, like this, that a friend could do exactly the same thing. And I wouldn't take it the same way if we've been talking the day before. Yes. You know? Um, and that isn't, so from that perspective, it's not really that fair. Um, but, um, the same token, we all know the older you get, usually the less time you have and. The busier life gets and it's not personal. It's just life. And we've talked about that before on this podcast. And so it is kind of a tricky balance. I don't know what about you? Oh yeah. I

Mel: feel exactly the same. And again, it's that assumption paces that, um, it comes back to where you just, you know, you let your mind go to. The kind of, that really critical place of maybe this doesn't mean as much to them as it does to me. And you do what? So, so often we are like, nobody else is obsessed. Like the other person is not obsessed and invite this as much as we are. I, I find in reality, you know, like, and I think part of the, particularly as an adult, maybe even as an adult that has caring responsibilities, A real new set of demanding priorities in their life. Um, it's almost like we should have some sort of, once you become a parent or you have to care for somebody else, we should have some sort of like friendship meeting where we all just, you know, give each other permission to have like loads of slack. Cut. Around those things and a real sense of can we just all make sure that we still believe that we're really close and care so much about each other, but in this season, it's going to be so hard for me to initiate some stuff. And we've, we've talked about this and our other episode about friendship and midlife. And when you guys all shared all of your beautiful stories with us, um, and that's what I mean by intentionality. It's intentional. Upright where you're at on the parameters that you need to maintain to kind of keep your shit together in all areas. And, but also intentionality in that, this friendships important to me. I, um, I'm gonna make sure. I prioritize checking in with you. Um, and that it's mutual, that it feels mutual. I think one of the things I find hardest is what I've maybe poured into a friendship and it never feels reciprocal. Um, I think those are the kinds of friendships that I find really difficult to prioritize.

Gabby: I, that really reminded me of something. I was having a conversation with someone recently about friendship and like friendship tiers. I don't know why this conversation came up, but it was one of those things where. Okay. Maybe this is just me, but I kind of think a lot of us have like rings of friendships. So you have like your close, close, close, like maybe there's one or maybe two people there and then expands a little bit bigger, maybe two or three people. And then you've got like, you know, friends that you wish you could see more, but you can't, and then you've got your ring of acquaintances. Or like, if you showed up at the same party, it wouldn't be awkward. And then it's just strangers after that. Right. So. I was talking with a friend the other day. And I was like, it's been a, kind of a weird season friendship wise because I, the way I tend to befriend people is like, if I like you and I feel like, I feel like we're connecting. I'm just going to be friend you. But like sometimes people come with friend groups. Do you know what I mean? Like it's like now that you're friends with me, like you're friends with my friend group and I, I don't have time for the whole friend group. I just have time for the one friend. And so I found myself in this situation a couple of times this past year where it's like, I have a handful of friends who are like all on my inner tier, but I know that I'm kind of on their, like maybe their fourth tier where it's like, they still like me and they're still going to invite me to see. But maybe not all this stuff. I don't know. I'm trying to remember who I was talking about with this. So, I mean, honestly, I, at this stage in my life, just because I'm like very clear with like my own boundaries and what I'm able to give in this season, that actually doesn't offend me, or I don't lose any sleep over that. I can honestly say that, but I know that in different times of my life, it probably wouldn't affect me as easy breezy as it does now. Um, And I think, I think it's just interesting though, that the, what you said about like things being mutual and feeling like, okay, we're meeting each other at the same level. And is it okay to have seasons where you just can't and can still be friends? Um, I don't know. I don't know if that

Mel: makes sense. And I was like, That you can, but often, unfortunately not with us, not without hurt feelings, you know, I think that's really important to be realistic that when the reciprocity is off. You know, it's, it's maybe okay. To get to the place where you're like, okay, they're just not able to kind of make me where I need friendship to meet me at the minute. And that hurts a little bit, cause I really want to, but we can let that go. And it just be what it is. Um, but I don't think that you can bypass it, not failing hard, um, when that dynamic is off. And I've had that a bunch of times, both as the person probably that is not able to, and the person that really wants to. Um, for sure. Definitely. There's there's hard failings

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Mel: I'm interested from your perspective or experience. You did say this earlier that you haven't had too many instances where you haven't where a friendship has kind of disintegrated or broke dine, or it just doesn't exist anymore, or you're not speaking. Is that true?

Gabby: I've definitely had friendships that have drifted apart where there's like, there's nothing negative. That's happened. It's just like life and space and experience has meant that we're kind of just drifting away. And when we see each other, it's like, oh, Hey, like I've even talked in so long. How are you? And there's nothing negative there. It's just. Kind of this mutual and that probably speaks to how healthy the friendship was before the circumstances shifted, because we can understand, you know, we, we had a good relationship. There's nothing, there's no hard feelings. It's just, you moved and we couldn't keep in touch or, you know, I love you, but I don't have actually the time and space to like call you every day or, you know, so I've had friendships like that. I have. I had a very small handful of experiences where, and these were, this was like, again, in more of my college years where I was just learning really for the first time, how to be a good friend where, you know, someone's just been like, I just don't want to talk to you anymore. That's it that's me done. And, um, I want to say most of those cases, You know, we eventually came back around and we're like, okay, let's talk about this. I'm so sorry. You know, I didn't realize I was doing that or whatever. Um, but I wouldn't say, and maybe this is just me being oblivious, but I think for the most part, you know, The people that I don't talk to anymore. It's not because there's any ill will there. I don't know. What about you?

Mel: Yeah, Sam, I think, you know, there've been a couple of friendships where painful stuff has happened or you just couldn't. Like, we didn't have the capacity to work at at the time. And it just felt too hard and it was taking up too much space that we, either of us didn't have that we had to just put a pin in it and, and kind of create some parameters around it. And, um, and let it fade out, you know, like I've had, I had some friendships where that happened. Like directly after my mom died. Um, and that was a pretty heightened time where I just couldn't give my attention to the unhealthy stuff that was going on in those friendships and they needed, they needed to just feared. Um, but I think it's really important that we talk about that. I have a lot of other people. Periphery who I've had conversations with recently where we have said, you know what, we don't talk about when friendships and or when we've had to like, stop being friends with somebody and kind of really, yeah. Like acknowledge that they're not going to be in our life anymore and how painful that is as well, like a breakup, you know, like a friendship breakup. Um, and I think if we're going to view. Friendship along the healthy and have this healthy view of them being a key relationship, just like a partner or a boyfriend or girlfriend or. Parental relationship and that they've serve a purpose is so important to our whole souls health. Then we really have to face up to the realities of sometimes it was friendships are going to end and it's going to hurt and it's going to be really sad. Um, and I definitely grave those friendships for quite some time. Um, and their night they're there. It's nice, you know, five years later. Um, you know, I'm able to see them and chat if we pass each other and that kind of thing. But at the time it felt like another death, you know, it felt like another, and I think that's really important to acknowledge because it's is a severing isn't that of something that once was super core to your identity, to your social, like structure to your, like, Com like your confidentiality, like these people know stuff about you, you know, all of that. It's such a severing, just like it would be a romantic relationship. I think there's, it's important to talk about it.

Gabby: Yeah, no, I totally agree. Just hearing you say that though is making me think. Maybe I haven't been ending my relationships. Well, what do you mean? I don't know. I'm just, I think, cause a lot of mine have just like petered out in a nondramatic way. I'm like, how did I do that? Right.

Mel: But, oh, that's, I mean, it doesn't have to be dramatic. Um,

Gabby: no, sorry. That's not what I, you know, I am, I wasn't trying to imply that that's what it was for you. I just more mean like, maybe I should have been more intentional about like, being like, Hey man. Yeah, like just calling it what it is. And like Bernay brown says, would you say that all the time clear is kind like, is there a benefit to saying, Hey, you know, or even just acknowledging what the role someone played in your life at a time, even if they can't play it anymore and just like giving. Acknowledgement and thanks and gratitude to them for that. I don't know. Now you've got me thinking,

Mel: um, are there friendships that you had in the past that were like, so like powerful or important or fun or exciting, um, that have petered out for whatever reason with no. Harm that you wish that you could dip back into for like awake, I suppose

Gabby: they're

Mel: probably like to just dip right into where you were and in that time as the person you are now, and just like, you know,

Gabby: I think the thing that is so interesting about my friendship timeline to me anyway, is that I really like, oftentimes for me, The friends I have are very much a reflection of the stage that I'm in. Sure. Personally. Yeah. On some level like, and that not like, like I do have friends who we're still friends and we have changed dramatically. Of course, over the years. Yeah. Maybe high school. I have like a, really, a really tight group of friends. In high school and we were always just getting up to nonsense and those are some of the time, like my happiest memories are just like driving around at night, listening to John Going to Perkins at midnight and yeah, just eating chicken tenders. I don't know. It's very harmless. Very wholesome.

Mel: It is so wholesome. Yeah. I just, sometimes I think that is, that felt like a fairy fairy, purist. I know you really do that. I pose to you just like, I really want to get defended,

Gabby: but then it was like a fast roller coaster down. It was like Chuck Chubb, and then down

Mel: in the car,

Gabby: I don't know.

Mel: Yeah. I mean, it's fun. Yeah. It's those, you know, I think we all have those like intensity seasons of friendship. And that's why maybe we're thinking about it a little bit more deeply at this stage in life, because the space was always there for that intense and exciting and the experiential friendship. Whereas I feel like friendship is. Less about experiences and more uptight connection and mutuality and CA like a deeper care for the person, rather than the excitement of the experiences, which also really bond G and connect you and give you lifelong connection and often have so much meaning to them, for sure. And are really formative. But. There's something different, a bite friendship at this stage, isn't there a bite, like it's not really a bite the experiences cause we ain't going nowhere.

Gabby: I think that's really well said, Mel. I never have never thought about it like that before, but I think you're spot on. It is kind of like, this is a very unromantic way. Are you doing it, but like, it is kind of like checking in with a, like a doctor, like a regular appointment and the sense of like, you really need it. Like, you need it for your thriving and it's good, but it does kind of feel like I'm checking in and I'm staying tethered and I'm making that choice because it's important to me. And it's important to you. Um, and it's, I mean, sometimes you can, if you can still have that and maybe it is like on the other side of. 'cause right now, you and I are in the thick of being moms. Like I would say 75% of our lives are taken up by that and in a big way, but maybe on the other side of kids, you get to have that a bit more again, I don't know where you just kind of are. Like, I get to experience. I don't know, being like, I would love to be like in an old person's home with you and be like, you know, gossiping about whatever. Golden girls.

Mel: I was like, if, I don't know if I shared this on here, or if I shared this on Marco polo with you, I can't remember. I'll say it again anyway, but I was thinking about, um, my parents and when they, they moved, they moved to Canada when they were like early forties. So not too far off the age I'm approaching, um, They did this big life move and they move countries with these two kids who were like, take like early teens. And I was eight. Um, I guess because we were at that age where we're a bit more independent and they moved away from their families from, from like any grandparents or siblings of their own. Um, they, I just on reflection, I'm thinking about the amazing freedom that they had for. Like, you know, a decade really like their forties and fifties was really a by establishing deep friendships through experience. So just as you're saying, I'm like on the other side of the kind of intensity of parenthood, maybe that will re-emerge again, I really did say that for my folks. You know, they, they, they go into kind of really deep friendship with this other co this other couple might, you know, my bonus mom. I am an uncle Abby. They have this like adventurous friendship where they went on all of these trips together. They spent every single Sunday night after church at each other's houses, watching movies. You know, I wait for that again. You know, I, I can't wait for the different, like to have the experience and the emotional intelligence to know that the connection is so important because I'm holding. Like working on that muscle here. Now I am my thirties, but then to kind of get to the other side where I can marry that up with having the experiences and the freedom to do more with my friends again is an exciting

Gabby: idea. Right? I think, I mean, that's something to look forward to right there. Like you never think you get to a chance to kind of relive your college friendships college year friendships, but maybe. It's just something like, it's not gone forever. It's just coming. It's just, it's just coming. I love that. Yeah. I really love that.

Mel: Yeah. And I think that's got to be the most, the sweetest spot in some ways, a friendship where you, you get to do all the things and have the experiences, but you come with this, like itch. And wisdom and understanding of what it takes to sustain. Yeah. Outside of the experiences as

Gabby: well. I that's

Mel: so good. And that's not to say that we can't be really intentional about making space to see our friends and I, and like have lose experiences, but it's just not the same level of access. Sure. It's not no like, um, but maybe this is our opportunity to. The old connection, reciprocity and friendship. Muscle. Yeah. Maybe that's what these Gabby: years are for. Yeah. So then on the other side, you're not a crappy friend, like I was in high in college, but you just get to have all the, the wisdom and the experience of those years to pour back into a really fun season of friendship. Okay. So. A couple of topics that we really wanted to cover, but I think we're running out of time for today. So maybe this could be like part one. Yeah. And we could do part one. And then next week we could talk about some more specific things that are tricky. Ooh. Maybe we

Mel: should put a little Colette as well. Yeah. Um, on Instagram and see like tricky things about friendship. That you'd love us to, to like that too. So keep an eye on our Instagrams for, um, yeah. Or if you want to email us, you can email us any questions that you'd love to, you know, hear us talk about, not that we're kind of experts. I don't ever want to put that possession on either of us, but, um, yeah, you can email us. Um, our email address for the podcast is hello. At making an effort, podcast.com or obviously just slide into our DMS.

Gabby: Yeah. Let us know. I think there's more to cover here, but we, I feel like we had such a good conversation about what friendship. And I think it would also be fun to talk about some specifics, because those are always juicy. I agree.

Mel: Ooh. Yeah. Maybe we'll do like a little agony aunt style, situational.

Gabby: Yeah. If you want to submit any of your problems for us to solve your friendship. Obviously taken with a huge grain of salt as people who are not in the situation,

Mel: please don't say, take it back

Gabby: if you want us to weigh in on your life. Oh man. Oh yeah, let's do that. Let's do that sound good. I'm glad we have just strategized on the spot. Welcome. This is very much what it's like behind the scenes. You are now behind the scenes Gabby and Mel

Mel: curtain has been pulled. Right. All right. Well, thanks guys. Thanks for less than, um, we'll be back next week with. More of your problems. Okay. Bye.