Episode 48: Permission to Evolve & Expand with Audrey Assad

Today's epsiode is all kinds of wonderful. We are joined with award winning musician Audrey Assad, who so graciously and with such candour, shares with us her tender evolution from Christian worship music darling, to losing her religion and expanding her views on life and self and everything in between. This is a GORGEOUS episode, full of depth and fun and tears and we are so excited to share it with you all! Audrey is creating new music, which is being funded through Kickstarter and she is SO CLOSE to reaching her goal. We'd love you to support her here:

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/audreyassad/new-music-from-audrey-assad

Here are some of the links to things discussed in the episode:

Audrey mentions the books The Way of Integrity by Martha Beck and Untamed by Glennon Doyle.

We chat about Madison Morrigan and her wisdom on aftercare after breakthrough.

Audrey’s WOW 2011 presents Christmas debut here. 😉

Gabby talks about her church Spero Dei (where Audrey will be performing April 2022).

She also mentioned collaborating with Porter’s Gate worship project if you want to check it out!

>>> Click here to read the computer generated transcript (note that the transcript isn't perfect)

Mel: Welcome to the making and effort podcast, the podcast where you get to drop in on a conversation with two friends, discussing all the things they make an effort. And some of the things they do, um, today, Gabby and I are joined by the lovely Audrey Assad. Um, our Audrey S said, which is how you say it in America. When I say people's names and they're like American, sometimes people that listen in or like, um, so especially, yeah, there are certain annotations towards the just don't don't try and say well, um, but hi, Audrey. It's so nice to have you. You're only our second ever guest on our Audrey: podcast. Oh, I didn't know that. Oh my Gabby: gosh. We love the sound of our own voices too. Audrey: but I'm glad that you do. I like your voices so far in this environment, so I get it. But yeah. Thanks for having me while I'm honored. Who was your first one? Was it. No, actually, Gabby: no, we, we need, we need to have the guys on, but, uh, um, no, we had our friend, Michelle, she's a psychotherapist and she chatted with us about how to navigate difficult times and friendship. And that was a, that, wasn't it a good episode, but we are so excited to have you, um, for many reasons, I mean, you've been a friend of mine for a few years now. We both live in Nashville and it just felt really organic to have you be a part of this because you're one of the people that I talked to about some of these like midlife evolving, self crazy things. So yeah, I'm Audrey: honored. We're just making an effort. Yeah. Audrey, would Mel: you do us the honor of. Fucking up your intro and tell us more Audrey: about you. Yep. Okay. Um, I knew this moment was coming and I honestly spent all night preparing for this, so I feel really good about it. Um, I, uh, let's see. Well, I live in Nashville. I've known Gabby. Yeah. For a few years here because, uh, one or two iterations of me ago, I was a Christian music, a touring musician and artist. And so I met her husband and their band through another band. You know, we met through mutual bands and then I went on tour with them a couple of times. And so she's met, she met me in a phase of my life that I don't reject or like regret in any way, but that I also don't currently really occupy. And so we've kind of been through, um, some seasons of life from afar or alongside. And so right now, Um, cause the yada yada yada part in the middle is what we will talk about as things come up. But now I am still doing art and music full-time, but in a very different space, I don't really know what that space is. I'm kind of carving it out right now saying what I want to say for the first time ever in my music without sort of restraint or constraint around it. And so I'm doing a Kickstarter to fund this record, but in the process of that, I'm coming up on all this kind of like, who am I, what am I doing now? What is my deal? Like? All right. So I don't totally know the answer to who I am right now, to be honest, I'm right in the middle of a birth. It's how I feel. So, um, that's the truth. Hmm. Wow. Yeah. Thank you. Mel: That was, that was really good. Well done. Gabby: A great intro. Mel: Absolutely smashed up. Gabby: Um, well, I mean, I have like immediately a million questions. Um, Yeah. So I think we talk a lot about becoming on this podcast in general and how we aren't, we aren't who we were in our teens or in our twenties or thirties, or, you know, we're always kind of growing. Um, what maybe, would you mind walking us through a little bit more in detail about what that has looked like for you as an, like an artist and a public figure? Audrey: Um, oh, I'd love to it's, you know, I was just telling my, my partner and my assistant. Who's also like my friend and my sister. We have this really cool little team, like meeting on Mondays to talk through just it's like a strategy meeting for business. Cause we all work together. But also we just talk about dreams and ideas and you know, so we're sitting there talking yesterday and I'm like weeping at this meeting, which I do regularly. And. I'm talking about how I'm like, I've never even told my story, you know, like I've never even really told my story because I've been there's fragments of it all around in songs and interviews, but I've never sat down even to myself and said, this is the way my life has gone. I have journals from high school. So I have records of some things. Right. But the idea of really recounting my life to myself, almost like a myth like the Odyssey, you know, to actually get some distance from it enough to see the arc. Um, that is something that I feel like I am in the process of literally like today and yesterday for the first time in my life. So like talking about this today is so interesting. Cause I'm, I'm carving I'm, it's like I'm speaking and then I'm discovering it at the same time. Um, so I would say like being a person with any public facing platform type thing, it's, you know, A mixed bag of things, because on the one hand, I've had some of the most incredible sort of touch points to S to have solidarity with people and hear their stories and feel less alone and sort of have that communal aspect to my journey that in one way is very helpful and very nourishing. And on the other hand, it is a hall of mirrors in a lot of ways and a sort of fun house of like projection and, you know, especially on social media, especially, which is a whole other subject, but I'm still on social media because I need it for my work. And so I'm constantly trying to figure out how to relate to it well, and I'm really sort of seeing that, wow, there are times when I have something that I want to say. Let's okay. So here's a practical example of, I mean, there's something I want to say. I need to communicate this truth. It's burning in my body. I've got to get it out and not taking a moment to say, who am I meant to say this to? Is it myself in the mirror? Is it my partner? Is it social media? Like, who is this for body? Like, why is this here? And I'm in the process of losing touch with that moment over and over for years and just putting things out there on socials. Um, I think that I've gotten it tangled a little bit in my brain who my thoughts are for right. I'm reading untamed right now by Glennon Doyle for the first time. And I just read a book called the way of integrity by Martha Beck, which totally wrecked me. I mean, I love her already, but that book has just, it was a whole journey just to read it for me, but, um, all this to say, telling the whole truth. On the internet to the world comes with just all kinds of interesting pitfalls and like, you know, then the discouragement of reading things on there that are not, it's not even that I often feel angry by what people say, if it's like disparaging, because there are people who say disparaging things on the internet about me. It's not just like, oh, it's, it's like accusations of things and, and just, you know, those, those sort of comments. And it's not even that I really feel angry in response most of the time or hurt. It's more like, I'm just sad that I'm sad that you can't feel what I feel right now. Like the peace that I feel, the joy that I feel, the freedom that I feel. And it doesn't feel like you feel that, and I'm sort of this like scapegoat for you. Um, yeah. I feel kind of honored by that role, to be honest, because I'm like, wow, Thank you. I, I don't know. I'm thankful to whatever forces in the universe have seen fit that I would be someone who could knock myself off my own pedestal and disappoint a bunch of people, because I know that those moments for me have been the moments where I have grown, evolved and expanded, you know, beyond my old skins. And so, I don't know. I mean, it's interesting, like yeah, a mixed bag, but I'm kind of, kind of honored by, I feel honored and humbled to be, to be able to play that role for people. But I definitely do. I feel like I'm constantly disappointing people. That's sort of a thing I feel well, Gabby: I've even witnessed that from the outside. Like, cause you know, I followed you for several years now and you know, as you have been gracious and generous enough to share with your followers, You know, different stages of your becoming you have, have received like different feedback from that. And like, you know, I think I even like voice memoed you the other day, like a few months ago, because someone messaged me telling me that they were so disappointed in something that I don't even remember what it was. And it like really hit me. Cause like, I mean, I'm, I don't, I don't have the following that you have. And I also don't have the relationship with my followers that you have, which is like, for them, you are like a, you know, as a Christian, uh, previously Christian musician, you represented like an aspect of their being and their faith and their tradition. And, you know, you have kind of grown past that. And I remember being like, how do you, like, how do you emotionally navigate that within yourself? Because. I maybe it's just like my oldest child syndrome or like just growing up in church, but like hearing that someone's disappointed in me, it was like the worst thing you could say, like, you can call me any name that you wanted, but if you said you were disappointed in me, like it crushes me and you had some really wise things to say about that in response. Um, but like, yeah. What is that like when you move using air quotes for people who can't see you when you've disappointed people, what ha what has that looked like for you internally? If you don't mind me asking, Audrey: that's a great question. My mind is ping pong, because I can sort of visualize the answer, the end goal of this answer, but not exactly how to get there. So just naming that, um, I have learned that for me, the external and the internal are inextricably linked. And what I mean is. That my body is the one carrying the effects of these interactions. More so than my like, thinking mind when I repeatedly get the ping of like, let's say cortisol, that comes with reading a notification from someone somewhere who wants to tell you something that they don't approve of, or that they are disappointed by, or that they don't like about you. I can shrug it off. Quote unquote, I'm doing air quotes in my brain, but the repeated effects of hearing people's disappointment and disapproval in my body are very real. I've learned that. So like on one hand I don't really lose any sleep over those comments. And on the other hand, my body is carrying the weight of that little ping of cortisol every time I can. I feel it. And so what I've learned is that it's funny. Cause I feel like this term is so loaded now, but self-care in all its forms because there are many, many forms of that. For me, they don't look all this. But that has become integral to things. So like, for example, in like the it's funny, cause I don't really occupy this world, but I just have a very curious brain, but like in the like BDSM world. Okay. I know you didn't expect me to say that there's something they practice called aftercare, which is like, after you have an intense experience sexually in this space, there's care, that's practiced on the back end of it. To sort of bring and restore any parts of the body that might be feeling stress from like an, you know, a stressful experience, even though pleasure is incorporated into that. And so aftercare, it becomes very important because the body needs to come back to harmony and peace. Wow. So that's, and so I've learned that when I'm having. And I've learned this I've I felt an practices for a long time, but my friend Madison Morgan, who is a gosh, one of my favorite Instagram followers, she succinctly sort of put on her socials the other day saying breakthrough aftercare is also really important for yourself. So when you go through a breakthrough, a good thing, something, a labor, a birth, like the things that in our lives, metaphorically, or literally are, are these beautiful gifts of new creation. Or for me reading comments on the internet, sometimes I need to salt baths after I do that, because I have to bring my body back to equilibrium, even if my mind is like, yeah, but no big deal. I'm just learning like these daily moments where, especially after something like that, um, reading, like I've I did a comments real recently where I, I read a lot of comments about me on the internet right now, and like chuckled at them. Cause they are funny. But I also took a salt bath after I did that. And just like talk to my body about it. Cause I'm like, you know, I know that you think you don't care, but is there any part of you that like, is there any part of me and if there is, how old is that part of me and what do they need right now? You know, hearing that someone is disappointed. So like that parts work sort of stuff that I've learned in therapy, I actually employ here a lot. Um, does that make sense? Mel: It does make sense. And it's beautiful. Um, and I've been watching, is it ma Madison Morgan? Yeah. Yeah. I've been looking at her stuff recently. Actually. I can't remember what brought my attention to it, but I thought that was really profound as well. This idea of, you know, when you, when you reach a breakthrough on whatever level that is virtually, you know, Energetically and whatever way that it Nate, your, your, your whole self needs tamping to you, for sure. Um, I'm interested in like what you said there about reading, like publicly rating back. Those things have been said about you. I that's special. That's a special kind of masochism, Audrey: I would say. So Mel: I'm curious if I, you know, for you, is it, and I guess I'm thinking about this idea of insecurity and like how that presents in each of us, for some of us, it is getting in front of the things or making light of the things people say, or just addressing the elephants in the room as a way to armor. That insecurity and stuff. Like, I'm wondering if that, like what's, what was like, what was going on for you when you were like, I'm going to do a re live, all the main things people say. Audrey: Yeah. Well, I can tell you it was a mixed, mixed bag of things. Um, on one hand there is a part of me that absolutely does really laugh out loud at these comments because a, they are so concerned and I, I don't want to laugh at that person for that, but can I just, can I Mel: tell you that I was staying away quick giggle on some things, if you just before this call. Okay. Yeah. And I think it was on your Wikipedia page. All right. This is super professional with me to be doing this order. Right. I'm like, Ooh, let's see what, um, so, and it led me to has, has, you know, in 2020 said that she had was no longer a practicing Christian, whatever. So I clicked the link to that. It brought me to your Twitter, so I'm not on Twitter, but I was like, okay, looking at all the replies to your announcement of that. And, and it wasn't even a nice mint. You were just like, Hey, by the way, Audrey: um, I don't really Mel: do that. So yeah. Cool phone off by, you know, like, so I was reading some of the things and one of them in particular was just like, they were like, Audrey: I told you. Yeah, I know. I know. I knew Mel: months ago, I told you that you were on a slippery slope, but here we are. Audrey: it's so funny. We'll see, like, I have these very dedicated, I won't call them trolls because I think they really care. They're not trolls. Like trolls don't give a shit. You know what I'm saying? These people give so many shits. Oh man. It's like surprising to me. I'm like, why is this throwing you off your axis? But I also understand that because our form, the, our relationship in the energetic space okay. Between me and. Is very real for them because, and this is an honor, like my songs provided shelter or, or catharsis for them in some way. And so they're like, if you're not that person that I've imagined then who the hell are you? And it's sort of like, I can see how I, okay. So we're kind of rabbit trailing, I think. But I think my fans and I have a very, there's like a very particular tone to the relationship that my music I'll say that they, that they have to my music. Cause they don't necessarily have that relationship to me, the person. Right. As much as it might feel like you do, there's sort of a separate one there. Yeah. There's a persona, an avatar that, and I'm, we're all presenting them. I, yeah, that's how it is. You know, we can't actually live any other way because egos are egos and that's just how it is. But they have a relationship to my music that I've learned is like very deep and very intense for a lot of people. Perhaps why the pushback is so loud on me evolving and changing out of the role that I've played. And I just think, yeah. So the part of the thing, part of me thinks it's funny because I'm like, dude, I, uh, the way that, oh my God, the other day I went on YouTube and all this person said was fraud, DRI facade. And I I was like so funny, oh gee, it got me, it sent me as the kids say it sent me and I was like, I I'm going to die. I have to read this on the internet. Like, there's something about that, that I have enough separation from it that I'm like, that's just funny. I have to say that I have to say it out loud and people need to know that someone said this. So there's that part. Right. The humorous sort of like casual, you know, I don't, I could actually Mel: be friends with them, Audrey: so it really made me laugh. And then, um, on the other hand I also have a part of me. That's like, oh, this is a really good capitalistic business opportunity. Like if I can publicly laugh at myself in this way, that is going to draw people to my personality. That's, that's definitely a thought I've had. I'm like, that seems like a smart idea. Cause like the people who, you know, go on, whatever show, I forget it is tonight show or something where they have them read mean tweets about them. Yeah. You're like, oh, I'm endeared to them immediately. Cause they're willing to do this on camera in front of people, you know that, so that there's this sort of like a, I don't want to call it. It's not manipulative necessarily, but like a scheming mind that I have, it's like, yeah, that's good. You know, I, can I turn this around for my own? How can I work on this? And like sail on it, you know, take the wind of this and put it in my sales a little bit. So there's that. And then of course there's part of me that is like immediately sort of, uh, I don't want to say insecure actually here. I think it's more like, um, I'm like looking for it in my body. You know, you look around at different corners when you're thinking of an answer or a word it's, it feels like there's a part of me. That's sort of like, you know, Oh, this isn't true. Right guys, like, look, look, send me love, like, woo, woo. Woo. I'm cool. We're good. I'm good. Right? Like they're, you know, the part that's like it is insecurity. I guess it's like, I need a mirror. I needed them here. I need a mirror, you know? And so before I posted it, because I was sort of aware that all these things were going on inside that impulse to do it. And I was like, okay, the me that needs a mirror. Is this like the primary me that wants to post this? If it is, it's probably not something I should put up right now. And I was able to sort of decipher like, yeah, that's not really the primary feeling. I'm having the primary feeling I'm having as the first one, which is like, this is funny and it's, I just need to laugh at it, you know? But they're definitely like different parts of me showing up to that kind of thing. And I have to sort of do the work of sitting with them and figuring out who's driving the bus, you know, the hierarchy. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Um, Mel: Hey everyone. We wanted to take a quick break in this episode and let you know that we have a Patrion peerage NAI. Uh, you know, we love, love, love doing this podcast each week and connected with you and our Patreon page as a way for you to get to hang out with us and for us all to be together even more. Help us cover the cost of running the podcast. So we can keep art sponsored ads to a minimum it's just $5 or four points a month to access it. And we have some really exciting plans for spending more time with you guys there this year. So. When you become a patron, you'll get access to our monthly, making an effort magazine where we're going to be sharing all of our best recommendations for food and books and TV and music and what we're wearing and all that good stuff at you'll. Get a patron only extra video podcasts from us each month and an invitation to join us for our annual making an effort virtual cocktail party, where we get to hang out together. Um, maybe each other more. So if you want to join the McKeon effort gang, you can find a link to our patron and the show notes, or you can go to www.patrion.com forward slash making an effort podcast. Can't wait to see your insight. Gabby: I wonder if you'd be willing to. Uh, answer and maybe even perhaps more personal question. Yeah. Um, so it's one thing to, to navigate these types of shifts in identity and your public persona and your avatar, uh, and with people that you don't have relationships with. But what about with the people you have real relationships with? Because obviously like, you know, um, I've like kind of been on the outskirts of like, you know, knowing you through a couple of different phases and within the industry and in relationships. And I wonder if you would be willing, cause I know the reason I'm asking this is because I know that quite a few of our listeners, um, have had their own faith shifts, you know, and they're in like late later adult life, um, and having to navigate that with their communities, um, and their families. And so I wondered if you would be willing to speak on. What that has looked like interpersonally for you. Yeah. Audrey: I love visuals and metaphors, but this is actually a real, a real thing that happened, but I want anyone listening who wants to do this and who isn't driving or otherwise caring for people, um, closing your eyes. And imagine with me that you walk up to this restaurant that's busy. It's like a Friday night, it's a taco place. There's like those, um, what do you call it? Metal, uh, like kind of intricately designed metal lamps that look like stars and sort of different shapes, like everywhere, speckling, the whole place with flight. Everybody's having margaritas. And you show up with your friend, you're both in kind of like athleisure. You're just out for a taco, you know, like every other girl on Tinder and you walk up to this restaurant and you look around and you realize that everyone in the restaurant is wearing a formal wear or like cocktail party where, and they're all going to the devil war. And you, you know, most of them and you once would have been invited to the devil wards, but now, you know, would never be invited to the devil wards because, well, it makes sense. You know, you're not practicing Christianity more. So me and my friend go to this dinner one night and we were both like ex Christian musicians and we were both in athletes or we were sitting on the literal edge of the restaurant. Wow. Kind of like around this crew of people that are all wearing sparkly, feathered, beautiful, you know, in suits and everyone looks good and they're having their pre-show drinks and tacos and everything. And then you have to have these repeated little interactions with people and you're like, oh, it's the deaf awards. And I'm like, yeah. You know, and it's like, we laughed so hard when we left for like that, what we didn't even know, the downwards are happening, you know? And we just, we were just there on the, on the fringe, on the edge, like it felt so. Fun like humorously akin to life. It was like, wow. A visual image of what we're feeling. We're all like we have like a hat I had a beanie on. I just felt like this is amazing. Um, and honestly, a moment that felt so good because I was able to, at least at that time, this was several years ago when I first had kind of exited all of that scene. Cause I lost, um, a whole community circuit of like events and people running into people and hugging them and catching up at this party or that dinner or this thing, you know, like someone's house or something. And I just was like, I don't go to those parties anymore. I don't hear from those people anymore. I just don't they're they're gone. Like it all just was gone and I did not really fully honor that void, I think until much later when I was. In a good place to feel those feelings. Um, and I've reached back out to some of those people in that world and expressed like, Hey, I still have a desire to have like a relationship, even though these things have changed, I am this person who loves you and who wants to know you. And, um, I've done that in several cases to try and just like, keep some threads as well, running through the like different parts of my tapestry. I don't really have this desire to just lose a whole community because my beliefs are different, but it's what culture expects or, you know, it's just sort of what naturally happens. So I'm in the process right now of working to try to pull it, make my life feel as holistic as possible and rebuild some of those friendships and sort of, um, but yeah, like navigating the shift as a person because my work and my friendships were also intermingled for so long then. This fundamental thing about me expanded and shifted, but it also happened to be tied to how I worked, where I worked with whom I worked. So my namely losing my religion also resulted in like everything about my life, almost, you know, socially dropping away. It was kind of wild, you know, like I, and it seemingly sorta just happened overnight. And, um, so it's painful. I mean, I don't really desire to have an, a network of relationships in my life that are fully based on shared belief. It just doesn't feel like it to me, you know? Um, and not everybody sees things like that. So it's just, it's an interesting, painful, complicated thing for sure. Gabby: I'm sorry, Mel: such low tolerance for that these days. Yeah, because it's still a low tolerance for the w well, actually we had a, a really, we had like a colon episode on the podcast a few months ago, a bite, you know, people who had to kind of moved away from church or felt dis disconnected from all of that faith and spirituality on the version of that, that they have been haunted. And, uh, one of my friends called in and talked about the idea of transcend and include. I love, I just love, I just love that so much. And I've, you know, I've been, I felt like I've applied that to so many areas of my life. And why shouldn't that follow through in relationships? Like, why can't we just yeah. Transcend Audrey: and include best friendships. I mean, I have several of them that are from that world. Like people I knew. When I was a young Christian worship leader who have still shown up with me to me and allowed me to do that, you know, with them and for them in to them. And so it is so precious because it is so rare. I think that people are willing and able to do that. And, um, when it happens, it feels like heaven because you're like, wow, I can all just be here and we can just hold it and hold it together. Not like we can. That's a beautiful thing to experience with someone. Oh yeah. Gabby: Yeah. I also think it's a real sign of like personal growth and maturity. Chris and I were talking about that the other day. He, he made the observation and I know he wouldn't mind me sharing this in his own life about how he can like kind of when he looks back through like middle school, high school, you know, early adulthood till now, He can kind of like block off, like I was doing rugby then. So this was my community and these were my friends and these are the people who knew me. And then I became a Christian. And then those were the, like, he, you know, you can kind of segment it out a little, which I think is like on some level, extremely natural, but he said, what he feels like he wants to grow out of is that every time he transitioned from one space to a new space, he cut ties entirely with the old space because he just didn't know how to integrate his old self with his becoming self. Audrey: And that is so human Gabby: it's so human. And I think we've all we can all relate to that. I mean, I know I can, because it's just on some level like mentally, it's hard to hold space for the different versions of who you are within yourself. Let alone communicate that to your community. And sometimes it just is easier to let go of the community and start over. Um, but I, Mel: but also the way that it's set up, like it's all set up that it's not that it's not really practical for you to include, you know, you move away from it and then the ax, your access to it all is gone. Everything that they do, you're not doing. So it's, you know, like even in the VR at the very basic, you know, I'm thinking back to when we left church 10 years ago, it's like, we, I mean, we were that place up building those people. They were, they were, are PayPal for, for like five days out of the week. We were involved in something with all of those people and you exit from that. And it's, you know, like you don't have this, it's not set up for. Engage with it in a real, in a real way and a real outside of Audrey: those per after microcosm, you know? So it's like, it's an ecosystem and I, I get that and it's actually really beautiful that it is, you know, they're in so many ways they're able to take, we were able to take care of each other because it was like that, you know, and I'm not here to disparage that, but it certainly doesn't. So like, if you think of, I agree with female, like my experience lines up with that so much. And you it's like the thing where I didn't know it was the devil words because I'm not in the know about that anymore because I'm not on the emails and I'm not, I don't have a manager who works with those people anymore. And I don't, you know, there's just like all the different threads of that whole ecosystem are woven together in a web. And I, in, in order to, um, the further away I got from the center of that. The wildest emotion becomes, and then you just sort of get flung off at like trampoline and it's just, you can't help it, you know? And I love visuals and pictures. Um, but you know, and I think I've learned that imagination is my greatest power. And if I can imagine something it's must be possible. It's sort of how I think about it. And so in this particular case around this topic, what I like to do, I was just thinking about Chris and what he said and what I do. Cause I struggle with that too, is I will spend time visualizing those MES, those different MES, you know, what they look like, how old they are, what they care about, how they dress, you know, everything about them and craft them in my mind's eye. And then just like visualize myself, merging them with me. I just visualize it. Cause I'm like, I, we are the same person. Where did the same person and I need, and I want to feel like I've integrated you. So I, I actually don't go right to merging though. I have this whole thing where it's like, I envision a table, I envision a table and different seats and they come and sit down and we talk, we have dinner together. And then we kind of merge into one and I have to do that a lot because man, integrating after these big shifts in any way is, is hard. It's hard. Uh, I get that, Mel: but you know, do you think that like, is it harder to not, you know, so Audrey: yeah, I think so. I mean, for me, the type of hard that comes from not doing that is not the type of heart I would rather have. I'm sort of like, yes, it's the other way. The integrative way is hard in a way where you feel that. More alive because of the pain you're experiencing, not like more asleep. Yeah. Yes. Mel: It's like your, your loyalty to yourself. Yeah. Is, is the hard choice. Audrey: Yeah, yeah, Mel: yeah, yeah. Oh, wow. Gabby: So I'm just like Nita sit Audrey: with that. Let's talk about something completely different. Yeah. I don't know why, Mel: but I had so much trash, trash talk. Me and my DMS, because I liked one of Kanye west tweets Audrey: yesterday. The like police are, so I totally Mel: relate Gabby: to you. Audrey: You know what? I think they're exactly the same Mel: him and the details. Um, I was like, are you asking me why I liked what I can use posts? Audrey: I feel like that's a really good response to things that people say that are really, really. He did. It's like, oh, so is what you're doing, coming into my DMS and saying this and this tone of voice, is that what you're doing? I'm going to put this back to you. Mel: I'm just going to put this back to you. You plan them simple and see what you Gabby: really think. Mel: So I think it's okay. Oh my goodness. So Andrew saying, I love, you said something when you were explaining a little bit of bite, just like that, your exit from that world, and you use terminology, like, I don't know that you said the word faith, but you said something a bite. It was expanding and shifting. And I think that a lot, I love that you said that because I think a lot of people actually. Um, use words of loss to describe this, um, this process and evolving and, um, this kind of evolution of self, which just in itself, like if we just break it down to the basics of nature, you know, like every, everything that we see has an evolution starts, as something grows into something else evolves, dies, grows back, you know, like it's just so natural. It's, it's just so Annette, um, I love that you talked about, you know, expansion of, of yourself rather than losses. I don't know if you could say some more about that, but I just really loved Audrey: that course important to honor the losses, which are very real. And I think I do, I actually just had a small. Zoom funeral for my old self, my, my Christian worship leader self from like a certain era. Um, a lot with two other friends, we each pick the version of ourselves that we were feeling really sad about changing from and honoring the losses that came about with that shift. But so it's important to honor those losses because they are real. And I have used language of loss to describe that shift before. And I still do occasionally. I usually say losing my religion because I think that actually is true. Um, but I do believe or think, I think my, I don't know mine right now is saying, can you absolutely know this is true? And the answer is no, but I think, and I feel, and I experienced that when I use language to, in an imaginative way. Um, more so than in a. Negative, I guess I don't, I don't know. I don't want to like come across as if I'm saying positive thinking is just sort of this easy thing you can do to change your life. But positively speaking about the things that I'm working through and learning, and experiencing or losing is some way for me to not hopefully bypass the pain, but to imagine a way in which this is for me. Um, and in which I become more me because of this thing falling away. Um, it's really important to me that I try to tell that story to myself, along with the thousand little, um, limiting stories that I'm always telling myself about things. You know what I mean? Like, does that make sense? Like you have all these, like, we already have a built-in mechanism for like defensiveness put self protectiveness, um, fear, bitterness. We have those mechanisms already firing, like in our psyche all the time. So I try to introduce a voice, you know, I guess that's all I can say. I try to introduce it, introduce a voice that speaks from like the best possible case scenario and just gets to have part of the conversation and it's. Yeah. And it's Mel: not a, it's not an, a toxic Audrey: positivity. No, I hope not. I mean, I, yeah, I don't believe in that. I don't want to do that, but I'm not sure anybody Mel: would, who would have known you for half a minute would know what Audrey: part of your that's good. Um, cause I don't, I don't like to bypass things. I, I actually love to feel it all. Actually. It's sort of like a, um, I've learned that that's the way to happiness and so yeah. Um, at least for me it is, you know, and so I'm, I'm definitely all here. I'm here for the grieving of loss because I think not grieving loss, not honoring properly honoring grieving a loss is exactly. What leaves that loss sort of, um, in that festering place of life, interrupting, simmering, bitterness, or fear like that really controls our worldview or our view of ourselves. It's because we haven't had funerals for the things people we wear. We haven't had those funerals and had those rituals. And I am so thankful that I have some friendships in my life now where I can come to them. This is what happened. I was standing outside by a river, looking at it and crying for how ever long, because I felt like I was sad about losing. Especially at that moment, I was really sad about what felt like a loss around communal singing. I was like, don't where do I do that? There is one place. And I just was like weeping thinking. Like, I really miss that feeling of. Circling around a rhythm and a melody and an idea and getting on a wavelength with people around it. And so I, in my really nihilist days after I left religion and I went through this phase of knowledge and all of that was stupid. It meant nothing. It's not true. That's not true at all. It, it, it, I don't exactly understand it, but I know that it did things in my body that I really miss experiencing. And in my heart, my heart, there were parts of me that would be knit back together after those times. And I miss that fan, that feeling, that space, that exact type of experience. And so I find myself going on the internet in the middle of the night to watch Osby Barry sing so alive. I Hillsong because I'm like, I don't even know. I don't even care. This is, I don't, shouldn't say I don't care. I care about everything, but I'm gonna say like, I don't care about quote unquote, what this person is even saying. I just want to feel what they're feeling in their heart. And like, I don't have a space to do that with people anymore. It's gone night. That was painful. Mel: I miss that so much. I always like, I think when you're, especially when you're musically minded and that is like, there's something so emotive and like my, my husband watches football, soccer, he's he's really into soccer. He gets up there. He actually gets out there the second, the communal singing. You're all in one voice for the one message, because it's so emotional Audrey: and there's a bylaw processes going on there. That's called, um, collective effervescence. I mean, they've studied it. It's sort of like, I don't see that as discounting the reality. Of the experience. I think it's a S it's an affirmation of the reality of the experience to me, that it means that when you circle around something, an idea, a shared cause, and you add music to that, and you sing with other people and you feel the strength and the vibration of that communal vibration of those voices coming out, it is healing to your body. It is wise to do that. I'm like we it's wisdom that we do this, but because that, that particular way of getting it, you know, is all based on shared belief. It isn't really, as you lose your access point to it, when your beliefs explain. Yeah. And I've gone to some of these new age. Thanks. To be honest, like I, and I am kind of new age myself. I'm sure. I'm sure that's probably what people would call me, but I go to these things and I'm like, dude, I cannot get into do it. I'm sorry. It's just good for you. Happy for you. But I am not going to be in this circle doing this thing we're doing because it just feels too weird. Can I tell you Mel: there's like the, sorry, I just want to, while we're still on this, I wanna tell you, but like, there are certain times where I've had to step back into church for, to be a supportive friend, right. Or to like, I don't know, like some sort of something has happened. I've been in, I've been asked to go along or, you know, in my previous job, I was like doing activism work and I was asked to come and speak at like a something. And so I'm there for the worship and all the rest of it. And I find myself like wanting to solve, like just. The thought of it, even right now, I can sense my, my skin just like bringing water up. Oh. Um, I'm like, I don't want anyone to see me crying cause I don't want them to Audrey: think. Yeah. That I'm like, I'm Mel: like Audrey: totally. Oh, I relate to that. Cause I'm like, dude, if people watching these worship videos, they'd be like, sees Jesus is calling me. So, like, she's not, she's not, that's the spirit, that's the holy spirit. And I'm like, yes. And also I'm not coming back to this, you know, Gabby, what were you saying? Like, Mel: well, I was Gabby: going to say, is this kind of where you are your disco? Uh, I don't know if you wanted to divulge that here, but your disco parties kind of comment a little Audrey: bit. Oh, karaoke has been karaoke. So karaoke has been where I have, uh, inadvertently discovered some shred of this feeling. I was terrified by karaoke forever because I'm used to just like having control, like playing I'm playing the instrument. If I mess up a thing or I forget the lyric, I can just had a little ax, you know, a little interlude or a little, but if I'm like on a terrible mic on this terrible sound system and I'm like singing this thing and I can't like, I don't have a. Hear me. I know that I have a beautiful voice. Okay. I understand. I'm about to say something that is a statement of fact, not an insecure feeling. I don't have a big, belty like impressive showy voice of like, you know, like when people get up there and they like nail a fucking, like power about you. Like, oh, I don't have that. So I'm get up there. And I'm, I'm, I'm singing songs that I like, because they're fun, but they don't necessarily suit my singing. So I'm not, I'm just one of everybody. When I do karaoke, I'm not someone special. And so that's both liberating and for a part of me terrifying. So all this to say, I just rediscovered karaoke through my partner who, Jeremy, who is like, we'll get up and do like pan Tara while like, Ooh, feel paced like a librarian very slowly with like his head down and just like. People will sit through it and like it, he just does whatever he wants to do, because it's fun. It's like, I I'm like what a novel idea. And so when you get around, so then when you pick a song that like the whole bar likes, and then they're all singing with you and it's like, that's where I've found that feeling again in a very different space. It's not the same, but it feels in another way on another part of my heart. So good. Like it's so healing to just be there to have fun and just to feel good and not to, you know, call God down. He'll my blindness. It feels really good to have fun because it's fun. I don't, I like that Mel: song. I need to know if Audrey: there's a song. I have several, I have several, I don't speak by no doubt. Um, uh, show me love by Robin and, and, uh, I love you always forever. Those are my three favorite karaoke songs. And it's like, I know them. They're familiar with some of them a million times. That's what it feels like in church too. I know this, I know this. I can sing this with you. So that's like, that's my new church at the moment in that one way where it's like, we're singing together. That's the only place that I get that. Yeah. Gabby: Yeah. I will say so. So I, I still am a part of church. I go, you know that the church, um, Audrey Sparrow day, we've been going there. Oh, Audrey: I really like, Gabby: we it's been really great for us, but they, so they, they kind of position a lot of their, you know, uh, Sunday mornings towards people who are kind of in this faith shift experience, but who still feel very connected to their Christian tradition and Christian faith. And so, uh, this last Sunday, you know, sometimes like sometimes the, like the worship songs will just be songs and sometimes there'll be songs that you would classically see or like traditionally see, bless you in a church setting. But, um, we, our, our worship leader, Nicole, she was like, I just want to ask you guys to indulge me. I don't, Nicole's great. Uh, she was like, I want you to ask you to indulge me. She's like, you know, there are some days where I. Like, you know, I'm so proud of who I've become and like how I've grown spiritually, but I also am a pastor's kid and I like miss the simplicity and the naivety you of that little girl sitting in a row and just singing these songs from the nineties. And she's just like, I just really like today, I just really wanted to sing. I love you Lord. And just have this moment. And so be saying Audrey: it was Gabby: weeping, I was just like listening to like the sobs and her Audrey: voice is like, she's unbelievable, actually, you know, what's funny. She was the girl I was with at. we're just, we were like, dude, this is amazing. Yeah. I love her. And I love Sparrow day. They're the one church in Nashville. I still like participate in anything with, I haven't been in awhile since before COVID, but, um, I'm playing there on April 15th for anyone who that just got decided yesterday, actually doing like my first concert in basically three years. Um, well with one exception, I played at the well in Brentwood, um, like a month or two ago, and it was like a writer's round type of thing. Right. And like 10 people showed up. And I played all these new songs and I just like said anything I wanted on two onto the microphone. And it was like, it was such a fun heli experience. Cause it was like so low pressure. There's like, no one there. I was just like, so here's, here's this funny thing. And here's this cuss word? And I just, well, I was like, wow, that was good. It was a good cutting my teeth moment as fair day. I probably won't be cussing quite as much, but I just needed to, I just needed to get it out. Mel: Oh man. Oh man. I love you, Lord. That's a good one. My brother told me that he fired. The Y worship albums on Spotify. And I was like, oh, you better believe I'm going straight to that. So I went to what, why? 1997, because that was peak. That was paid for me. And I swear I was born again and again, and again. As soon as that intro to Michael W. Smith Audrey: dude oh, that dude, I, I do that regularly because I, and with not just with Christian music, but you know, with music that I loved when I was 13, I listened to it now to remind myself what it felt like to be that me and I think that's a healthy thing to do. Like it is so listening to these worship songs, I have friends that have left church and we text each other, the worship songs from old, you know, versions of us in new things. And we're like, wow, don't you miss this? I love this song feels really good. You know? And I have several friends, I do that with, and it's so healing because I'm allowing. That version of me to still be here, even though my, my beliefs have expanded overall as the many MES that make up me like, Hm, that me is still that person. And she still gets to be here and love the things she loves. Yeah. I need to allow her to be herself. You know, it feels so good. It feels so good. Mel: It does feel so good. Did you ever have a song on a YCT Audrey: on one of the Christmas cards? So now you that's your homework. Mel: That is my Gabby: homework. We will be that in the show notes. Mel: Although the crystal and crystal Lewis, Audrey: this reminds me, oh my gosh. Oh, Mel: And I was like, oh, I could do with it this one though. Audrey: Oh, but she is so talented though, that voice fully now, but guys can tell you a story. I know we probably have to go in a minute, although, can I name something in this moment? Which is that I found myself several moments ago. Wishing I could do this with you every week. I've really enjoyed it so far. You can, Gabby: you have an open invitation Audrey: just to talk about whatever. Cause like I thought about like how fun it would be to talk to you about Kanye. And I just felt a little sad that I don't get to do that. So Gabby: I told, I told her a better our episode this morning, I was like, I really call Mel: it our, would we call it our episode? Gabby: It was my episode listening. Audrey: I love that. I'll tell you what Gabby or a Malibu, both of you, I will text or email you if I ever have like a wild hair to talk about something and you can decide if you also have that wild hair to talk about it, we can discover that together. But so the other day. I there's another Christian organization, one other one. So there's Sparrow day. There's one other one that knows everything about me and still invites me to things and it's called Porter's gate. So they do, it's like a not-for-profit that they make records about certain topics. Like their first one was about work and it's like worship songs and church songs about labor and work. And the dignity of that. And what they'll do is have like a small or large, depending on the budget of the year, symposium of thinkers, artists, academics, um, preachers, whatever that come together and discuss the topic and hear lectures for a few days. And then basically they write an album or two or whatever, and they record them. So I've been part of that since it's. And as I've evolved, I've shared with these people who lead this organization, like, Hey, I'm just letting you know, like, this is kind of where I am on X, Y, and Z. And they're like, great, well, can you make it to our next, you know, they keep inviting me to be part of their things. And recently, like a week ago I recorded two, two songs for them. And one of them was kind of this, um, it's a Josh Garrels cover actually, but it has this gospel sort of tone to it. And it's about the baby Jesus being God and the Lord of all things. And God, I was just losing it that day. Like, because it felt so good to sing about it. And also I was like, I don't have to pretend that I don't know if I believe everything about the way this story was told to me. Yeah. I can just be here and feel this feeling and be allowed to be here. It felt so. I've communicated to them in so many tears. So many times where I'm like, I don't know if I can communicate to you, how thankful I feel that you let me be here. I just, and they're like, you're going to be welcome here forever, no matter what. And that is the only, the only Christian spaces where I've actually experienced that. And so I just want to honor them Porter skate and spare a day. We love you. Thank you for me. You are these Gabby: people who are creating spaces for where people can show up as their authentic selves, without any expectation are so healing. And so few so, um, and I, I know Porter Porter skate right after that, right? Yeah. They just released a new song with Jonathan Ogden, I think. And that was beautiful as well. We'll, we'll link all this in the show notes, as they say, well, I want to honor your time and you have been so, so generous with everything, but we're going to do some rapid fire questions, and then we want to hear all about your Kickstarter. So. Uh, first, this is not on the ones that I present you, but what's your Enneagram again? Audrey: Nine. Oh, I Gabby: did know that. Ooh. Mel: Yeah. Audrey: Nine. Yes. Nine of all nines. I love a nice, such a beautiful, I think my partner's a nine. We're just like, Mel: yes, whatever Gabby: you want or just yes. Yes. Okay. Here we go. Should we just Mel: have a nap? Yeah. Yeah. Audrey: Let's just cuddle. Let's just cuddle. That's what, whenever we have a conversation that we would need to have, we like, let's just cut a while we talk about if it fits, it's the best. I recommend it. If you have to talk through something hard, hold each other. It's a great way to go. It's amazing. Mel: Lovely. Gabby: Well, it feels like a lot of physical contact for me, Mel: actually, more combative than that. Audrey: What's your sign Gabby. What's your, what's your sign? Your son saw I'm a Leo. Gabby: Sarah Leo. Audrey: So you eventually liked to cuddle? Yes. Okay. Got it. Yeah, that makes so much sense. And you were perfectly you for us. I'm Gabby: very ego driven. Um, all right, here we go. First question. What is your most unpopular opinion? These Audrey: days? Joe Rogan and Jordan Peterson have a lot of good things to say, oh, Mel: oh, I wasn't expecting that. Gabby: Especially the Peterson one. Okay. That was Audrey: that's my most controversial one. I think just to be clear, I don't agree with him about everything, but I think he has a lot of course. Gabby: Oh, thank you for that. I want to talk. Okay. Next episode. Uh, what song do you go to, to get hyped up these Audrey: days? Um, bodies by Muna and the Knox. Gabby: Oh, I don't know if I know that one. Okay. More homework. That's after this, uh, best food you've had in the last week, Audrey: in the last week. Uh, Ooh. Why is that so hard? The best food I've had in the last week is general. Please. Thank you. Um, it is the whipped pheta dressing that I made myself the other day with herbs. So Gabby: dreamy. Oh man. Mel: I must not the first time that it's not the first time that whip pheta has been mentioned on this podcast. Oh, Gabby Audrey: and I podcast about food. I, or we could, I could talk about food every day, all day. Gabby: Yeah, we originally were going to call the, this podcast, the F word, faith and feminist. He wanted to talk about food that much, Mel: but we still do. Audrey: Maybe we just need a side podcast once a month called the F-word. There you go. Gabby: Uh, last question advice for, or what do you do when you give something your best effort and it doesn't turn Audrey: out like you hoped? Um, I cry, I take a bath and I eat something very delicious and I tell myself that it's okay to fail and, uh, yeah, I have to repair it myself when I have a failure for sure. Wow. Gabby: That's good advice. That's really good. Well, um, thank you for being here. Would you like to tell us where people can find you online if they need to troll you do not. You do not have my permission. That's wrong. I Mel: told you Audrey Audrey: Audrey facade reporting for duty and never recover from that. I know it's so good. I hope you titled that episode that, um, please, please, please. So, okay. Currently, and this currently, as in whatever, Monday, when you're hearing this people or Tuesday of next week, um, I have a Kickstarter running for several more days. I think it's over on Thursday or Friday. I can't remember. I think it's the 28th or 29th that it's over and I'm making new music and it's kind of in a few years, I'm making a bunch of songs about. Being alive and feeling all the feelings, including the prayers, including the mystery, including the sex, including the anger and the sorrow and the joy. And so I'm writing songs about all of the things. And so I'm doing a Kickstarter and if you feel like pledging or donating to that, you can find it at the link in my Instagram bio, um, where you can search for me on Kickstarter, but I'm on Instagram and Twitter as Audrey sod and Facebook as well. Audrey Assad music. Um, I'm on Instagram the most, but I, I am different versions of myself on Twitter and Instagram. So Instagram's like, um, it's playful, but it's a lot of spirituality, a lot of talk about my body. Embodiment. And then Twitter is kind of like where I go to say, like, what the fuck is up with Wordle today? Because it almost, it almost ruined my whole day, um, what happened? And then I Googled it and apparently there's two different words going around today on Wordle and it's kind of a glitch they're having, so it's not my fault, but oh, that's right. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. I don't want to give it away, but actually no, I can cause no one can, what did you get for today? It was a Gora, which I don't know what that is. And aroma is for some people and a Gora is for some people and Roma. I had a hard time today, dude, at least it looks like nevermind. Okay. So thank you for having me. And that was wonderful. Um, well Gabby: thank you so much for being here generous with your time. Audrey: It's so fun. You guys are a great time and I'll be back. We're so grateful. Mel: Thank you. Or welcome back Gabby: whenever you want. Mel: And we, yeah. We'll put links to your Kickstarter in our show notes as Audrey: well. So that's so helpful. Mel: Yes, absolutely. We will. We'll send people your way. Um, you know, our parents and stuff, people that, um, Gabby: yeah, no, if you are, if you are. About artists and humans showing up as their real selves in public spaces. You should definitely be about this Kickstarter. I'm just going to put that out there. if you want to show noble, isn't Mel: that honorable putting yourself out there and being like, Hey, can I have some money? Cause I really like to do this amazing art Audrey: you'll will let I'm scared. I'm scared it won't fund, but I'll figure it out either way. That's what, I'm not. That's what I know. I'm like, well, even if it flops and I have to do some really long weeks of self care after to deal with my bruised ego, then I will still make this music. So I don't need you to. But I would be honored. And so thankful if any of you listening felt like giving even a dollar or just sharing it, you know? Cause honestly I think sharing is just as valuable. And even if you don't have funds or don't want to contribute funds to it, but you feel like you could share a post about it from my feed. That's a huge gift too. So thank you for considering whoever's listening. Um, thank you both. Wow. Gabby: Yeah. Well thank you for being here and um, yeah, we'll be in touch and um, if you enjoy today's episode with, would you please be so generous to share with your friends or give us a drop us a comment on our reviews and we will see you next week. Bye Mel: bye everybody.