Episode 23: Championing Neurodiversity in Our Friendships & in Our World

Hey friends,

Thanks for tuning into today’s episode. It means so much to us that you took the time to listen! I (Gabby) mentioned I’d list a few of the books and accounts I follow to help broaden my perspective around autism and neurodiversity so I’m going to link those here. If you have recommendations you’d like to share, feel free to drop them below in the comments.

NeuroTribes: The Legacy of Autism and Future of Neurodiversity by Steve Silberman — This is the only book I have to recommend because it’s the only one I’ve read on the subject. Like I mentioned in the episode, I’ve focused on my energy on becoming an expert in my SON and not an expert in autism and part of that has meant not reading up every book that comes my way. This one, however, I believe is a great resource for understanding the world of autism more and what a future that champions neurodiversity can look like.

Accounts I’ve learned a lot from:

@fidgets.and.fries — Instagram feed of Tiffany Hammond. I’ve been grateful for the things she’s shared about the intersectionality between racism and ableism and how to be a better ally across the board.

@weworkwithautism — A great account to follow especially to hear from the perspective of autistic ADULTS and not just hearing from parents or caregivers of autistic children like me.

@neurodivergent_lou — I’ve loved following Louise for so many reasons, but the infographics she creates and posts regularly have been so eye-opening for me. TW: she’s very vocal about being against ABA therapy (a conversation I’m NOT getting into today!) but no matter where you stand on that issue I still think Louise’s is so generous to share all the information and education she does.

This is just a start, but there is a wealth of information online. As always, feel free to get in touch with at hello@makinganeffortpodcast.com OR directly to my personal email account gabriella.llewellyn@gmail.com

>>> Click here to read the computer generated transcript (note that the transcript isn't perfect)

Mel: Hey, everybody. Welcome back to the Making an effort podcast, the podcast where you get to drop in on a conversation with a couple of friends, discussing all of the things they are making an effort with and all of the things they aren't. Um, this week, um, we have a really special episode. One that I've been looking forward to, uh, for a while, where I get to kind of put my friend Gabby in the hot seat a little bit, um, As we talk about what it's like, um, raising neurodiverse kids, um, um, particularly Gabby's experience, um, and all of that. So I'm super grateful, that Gabby is up for this conversation. Um, Um, yeah. How are you feeling by chatting about this?

Gabby: Honestly, this is the first episode I've ever had butterflies for, um, and I'm really excited to talk about it, but I just know that it is such a loaded topic for so many people and myself included. And so I just want, I really hope this episode, I guess, is a helpful resource and not, um, I don't know. And not something that rubs people up the wrong way at all. Really at the end of the day, I just want people to feel better resource to care for their friends and for their friends, kids and their, yeah. And just the world, really. Um, but yeah, I mean, I guess like, so as I've thought about. Approach this podcast episode. Um, I just want to say from the get go, I am not an autism expert and I'm also not trying to be one. Um, I'm just an expert in my son and that's really the only thing I'm trying to do in this episode and beyond. Um, so I guess I, I think another reason why this episode feels a little bit nerve wracking for me is because. I'm very torn about wanting to share my experience and advocate for Danny, um, and wanting to also respect his privacy, especially since he's not really at an age where he can tell me himself what he's comfortable with me sharing. So today I'm actually not going to share any specifics about the ways we're currently working to support Danny, um, as parents. About his diagnosis in particular. But I do, because this is an episode like this whole podcast is built around friendship and how to be a good friend. Like that really is what this podcast comes down to. Um, I really want this episode to kind of more reflect how you, the listener can be a good friend to maybe your friend who is raising and an autistic um, kid and like even just, um, how to be more inclusive about neurodiversity. Um, so yeah, that's good. That's kind of where I'm coming from.

Mel: No, that's a great context to start with, um, for, uh, for people. And I really love that you're coming at this from a place of. Respect and your son respect and his story. Um, but also knowing that there are aspects of your own experience as the mum, as the parent, as the, as the woman, as the human being, um, that you can speak to. You know, ultimately, well, I, you know, help other people navigate some of this with their friends, because this is, this is a huge thing. I don't think there are too many of us in the world that aren't connected to a family, a friend, a loved one with, you know, who is neurodiverse. Um, And so we can all do with brushing up really, really becoming better allies for our friends and families who are navigating a world within Euro diverse child that is set up for, you know, neuro-typical people.

Gabby: Yeah. I mean, and neurodiversity as a concept, I think it's such a great word. Um, you know, I think ultimately, and as soon as you kind of enter the, the world of autism in any way, either as an autistic yourself, or as, um, a parent of a kid with autism, you hear this one phrase repeated over and over again, which is if you know, one person with autism, you know, one person with autism. And even though. You could like, I mean, anytime you're online, researching this stuff, you will see that plastered all over the place, but it's because it's true. And so you'll hear that kind of throughout this episode too. I also actually wanted to quickly acknowledge, um, I had, when I was talking on social media about the fact that I was going to be, we were going to be doing this episode and I was going to be sharing a little bit about my experience. I had a couple people reach out to me and say, hope. You're not just going to be talking about. Autism from a kid's perspective and you know, like I'm an autistic adults, or like, I want to know the, uh, like adult autistics perspective. And while I think it's a completely valuable, I mean, a very valuable point of view. Um, that's just not. My personal experience. So I can't, I can't speak about that knowledgeably. Um, maybe, maybe if there's enough interest in it, we could do a call-in episode where people could call in with their experiences. If people think that would be interesting or helpful. Um, but there's tons of people you can follow online and I'll link some of those in our show notes to adult autistics, who are sharing about their experience. Being autistic and, um, just, yeah, the things that help them and how they move through the world and how they see the world. And so that this isn't going to be that episode, um, only because I don't have that experience to share. Of course. So, yeah. Um, yeah, that

Mel: would, that would not be no, that would not be, uh, appropriate at all for us to ever talk about those things with no experience.

Gabby: Um, yeah,

Mel: so, I mean, I'm really happy to be led by you in terms of how we, how we talk about this and to make sure that you have a voice to be able to talk about the aspects of this, of this journey and your, the season in your story, um, and what it's been like. And, um, You know, I think it's, you know, it's one that I've, you know, been in the periphery of, I guess, as your friend for the last year, especially, um, since Donnie's diagnosis.

Gabby: Yeah. Um, as

Mel: you guys started to kind of understand more of what was going on, um, for him, um, I wonder. Yeah. I wonder if you want to just start by sharing a bit about what that's been like for you and yeah. Um,

Gabby: yeah, I know it's a little bit, since I've said I won't talk about specifics as much, but I don't mind sharing that. Um, you know, we got Danny diagnosed last summers actually it'll be a year. It has been a year. We got him diagnosed 1st of July, 2020. Um, and that was a really big day for us. Um, we obviously had noticed quite a few differences in how he was moving through the world, um, compared to his peers. And that is just a personal choice of the parents of course, to get that diagnosis. But we actually found it incredibly freeing and profound. And while there are, there's a lot of controversy about, you know, What to do with your diagnosis after you ha you know, after you receive one, I'm not going to get into that today, but, um, the diagnosis itself, everyone I've talked to you, whether they're adults or parents with kids or teenagers or whatever, um, have said that diagnosis is a really important and special experience for them, because while it can. Have a lot of emotions, it can be very emotionally loaded. Um, it also helps you understand if you're, if you're the person with autism, it helps you understand yourself better. And if you are the parent or the family member or the caregiver, it helps you understand your, you know, the person you're caring for much better as well. Be able to support them in ways that maybe you wouldn't have been able to, or wouldn't have known to do without a diagnosis. Um, I was chatting in my DMS with, um, a mom of a teenager with autism who didn't get diagnosed until she was, I want to say. Like middle school or high school. And she said it was such a powerful and profound experience for her daughter. She just felt so free to be like, oh, this is, this is why I there's like there's language for why I don't feel like I fit in. Um, It just allowed her to communicate her needs to her peers and her teachers and her friends better. And it just went, she went from, for her. Anyway, she went from feeling like a social outcast in some ways to being a part of the conversation and being included and understood on a deeper level. And I mean, that's just one person's experience, but I would say that has been our experience as well. Raising Danny, is it just edit instead of being. Things that you would maybe label as badly behaved or disobedient or whatever. Now have really helpful language, which is just, oh, like, you know, if he's responding to something a certain way, how can we. Try and figure out where that's coming from. And of course, kids are just kids too. Like sometimes he is just being a three. Yeah. Three-year-old with a tantrum. That stuff is still all the same, but it, it helps us understand how to get to the root causes of some of those things a little bit more. Um, and so I would say. If you're someone and this is just my personal experience and the experience of my friends and, you know, the people in my community who deal with this, um, diagnosis can be such a wonderful thing to get involved in. And so, yeah, we did that last year, um, last summer and yeah, we had a great psychologist to help. You know, just really loved Danny and it was just a super positive experience for us overall. Um,

Mel: so, um, so like, um, yeah, I find that really inspiring that you're, that you're that you talk about it this way. And I don't, I also just want to really honestly say, like, I, I feel like real reversal from the episode of, uh, when we talked about grace and, you know, like, That I am probably going to ask the wrong questions, I imagine, or say something that isn't, that isn't the right freedom of questioning or something. I'm, I'm kind of aware of that. Um, but the, when you to hear you talk about diagnosis in that light is so fascinating to me because I guess, I guess when you hear the word diagnosis, you automatically think of. It's a problem. There's a problem, right? Like, like something is

Gabby: wrong. Yeah. Yeah. Right. And that

Mel: language kind of insinuates, like if you go to get a diagnosis of like a mole on your bike or, you know, a pain in your leg, um, um, It kind of sets it up linguistically, I suppose that you're, you know, and so I just love the idea that when it comes to near diversity and when it comes to, you know, ASD diagnosis, um, that it can be an opportunity for real freedom for everybody. Um, Yeah. Yeah.

Gabby: And it's interesting. And I think so. And I've taken a lot. Yeah. My cues. And in like the language that I've adopted when talking about this stuff from adult autistics. And so, you know, if you hear me say things that feel a little bit jarring to you. Um, these are just some of the cues that I've taken from my own research and like listening to people who have autism and, um, the way that they like to be referred to and talked about. And, um, but yes, like what you're saying, it's like, it implies that something is wrong and that can feel really tricky. And here's what I've learned. And I'm, I'm more than willing to talk about this with people after the fact as well. But, um, autism. Is it is a disability and it's not a disability because it's wrong or it's not a beautiful way to move through life and through the world. And doesn't have. You know, tons of its own merit, but it's a disability because the world, as it is today has not been set up for autistics. So that is why the same as, you know, being in a wheelchair or anything that is considered as a disability. It's because the world is not. Really set up to support it. It's a completely abelist society. Yeah. We live

Mel: prioritized like able-bodied and even that it's like what, what, what actually qualifies a body to be able. Yeah.

Gabby: Right. Exactly. I

Mel: mean, I know, I know lots of people who are wheelchair users. Or are blind or, you know, have other things that are classed as air quotes, disabilities. Um, and, uh, yeah, that, that language I think we can get, we can get super tied up in, or it also just confirms. The ableism that does

Gabby: happen. That is really rife. Yeah. And I think that language is such a powerful tool. So when you say it can feel really uncomfortable to refer to something as a disability, because what you're actually doing by using that word is acknowledging that there needs to be systemic change. That happens. To accommodate all people fully. And that feels really uncomfortable. It's E it feels easier to say special needs because it puts the burden back on the person who has the quote unquote extra needs, as opposed to the society who needs to make changes for those people. So from everything that I have been learning, and I'm sure I'm going to look back on this podcast episode and, you know, five or 10 years. I'll have grown from where I am today and be like, oh, I wish I had known this at the time. I'm still on my own journey of learning all of this stuff. But what I've learned up until this point is that it's okay. It's not just okay. Preferred to use the word disability, um, when referring to autism, because you know, as the world world is right now, it is one. And by even using that language, you can be an advocate for people who are experiencing a disability by shouldering some of the responsibility, even in your language. If that makes sense.

Mel: Yeah. And I think there's so much it, that people just don't want to offend obviously, or, um, or like yeah, double dine on the, on any of the stuff that as a massive barrier for anyone who has autism or any kind of other disability.

Gabby: Yeah. And I mean, here's the thing where it gets so tricky. And so this is a huge. I, yeah. And this is where this isn't just a straightforward conversation. This is so incredibly nuanced, but I am such an advocate for diagnosis myself because I do think it benefits the person. Um, but there's a lot of stigma that I think parents don't want their child to experience. And so that they don't sometimes. Choose to diagnose their child or get their child, you know, diagnosed. And that is on some level, like the parents are like completely the parent's choice. Um, but yeah, like the word disability might rub certain people up the wrong way who have not necessarily come to terms with what their child is walking through. And so it is, I would say if you're trying to be a good friend to your friend, you know, Follow their lead, you know, the way that they refer to their child and the way that they talk about their child is the appropriate way. You don't need to educate them on their child. And that kind of actually, so I. I, um, wrote down a list of five things that I think could be helpful, but my first one and this, I did not plan this, but it leads into it perfectly is do not expect your friend with an autistic child to be an expert in autism, but do you expect them to be an expert in their child? And so that you can just kind of follow your friend's lead when it comes to this stuff, you know, If you have a, if you have a friend with a kid who's autistic, you know, you don't need to suddenly become, or a grandchild or a niece or a nephew or whatever, you don't need to suddenly become an expert in this topic. Um, but one thing that you can do that is incredibly loving unsupportive is be an expert in your friend and their child and how to love them. And. Specifically, you know, support their needs and desires and wishes and dreams. And, um, and I think it kind of comes back to this idea of championing neurodiversity and that every kid with autism, every person with autism is not the same as each other. You know, you can really champion neurodiversity by seeing the individual for who they are and the individual family for who they are, as opposed to being like, okay, so. Autism, these lists list of things or what I should expect, you know, it's like, it's not like that. And it would be easier in some ways, but it's not like that. Mm

Mel: Hmm. I really, really appreciate that. Um, hugely, because I think, again, we, I, I guess, uh, the whole diagnosis concept and all of that stuff sends people into this idea that. If, you know, they can, they can learn about it, which, I mean, of course it's important to be educated about it generally, but the most important aspect I hear you're saying is that you learn how to love your friend and their, their, their journey with it all. Um, whilst she Gabby: gotten that list. Um, so the second thing I wrote is. Don't share your stories about someone, you know, with autism or like, be like, you know, oh yeah, my friend or my friend's nephew, or, you know, like, it's actually not helpful on many levels. It's not helpful emotionally. That's probably the most obvious ones. Like. Well, why is that off, but why, why

Mel: do you think that emotionally? Cause it might not be obvious,

Gabby: right? Okay. Well, I guess a lot of this comes back down, comes back to, you know, disabilities and autism, regardless. It comes back to just like general parenting peer to peer etiquette, you know, like. Leave it leave all that out of it. Like if you see your kid, your parents, your, your friend's kid, having a tantrum, like, are you socially gonna launch in with like, well, here's how we deal with us. And here's how our friend deals with this. And like, oh, you should really get, you know, like you don't, you don't, that's not being a good friend. If you are doing it, you're talking. Like, I think, I think I can just say that, but like, So similarly, I think sometimes people think that that rule doesn't apply when it comes to, you know, P you know, kids who are autistic or have some kind of disability of some sort, like every person is so different and you can trust. I mean, imagining baseline, every parent we're talking about here is someone who loves their child. Is obsessed with them, wants the best for them. Yeah. That's not in question like you can trust your friends lead on what they're, what they're doing. And so like,

Mel: unless, so when you say, when you say, like to refrain from talking about other someone else, someone else's story of, of that, can you, can you kind of go into a little bit more of what, about what you mean?

Gabby: Yeah. So on the one hand, one thing that I like is like, you know, one thing I do like is when people are like, oh yeah, like, you know, oh, like when I share, oh yeah. You know, Danny's not non-verbal because he has autism and whatever. And someone's like, oh yeah, my, my nephew has autism. That's, you know, that's cool. Whatever, like, that's fine. Hmm, that's fine because, and actually in a lot of ways, I find that really helpful because I, it allows me to kind of relax a little bit where it's like, there might be some, there are definitely differences in how their nephew and my son are going to be, but the, what it lets me know is that they have an understanding of. Neurodiversity that allows me to just kind of relax a little bit, you know, and I don't have to feel like I'm, I don't know, but what I, what isn't helpful is like, oh, have you tried this or have you read this book or have you heard of this therapy? Or, you know, my cousin did this, like that kind of advice. Vaccination

Mel: conversation

Gabby: or something. Yes, please do not bring up the vaccination conversation if you don't. Yes, please. Don't that kind of stuff just don't go. It's not helpful. And it really isn't and it's. Yeah. Cause

Mel: you're not, you're not looking for ways to fix

Gabby: your kid or no. You really? Aren't like, you're looking for ways to support your kid. You're looking for ways to help them thrive. You're looking for ways for them to be, you know, the fullest version of themselves, but, um, that looks really different child to child and parent to parent. And yeah. I don't know if that makes sense.

Mel: No, it absolutely does. I think, you know, there's that. That awkwardness, I think as well, that probably comes into it because we aren't, we aren't cleated and we aren't exposed so much to neurodiversity, um, uh, normalized in that, in our culture and our society and in the world. So I, I imagine often people's thoughts around that and how they maybe. Back to, to parents is around their own awkwardness and trying to make a connection or whatever, like, yeah. But you don't, you don't need help in that way. That is not the

Gabby: support. Yeah. That's helpful. As a no really isn't and trust me, a parent of an autistic child is already. Going through a lot of deep seated doubts about their parenting without your interface. Um, sure. Um,

Mel: and I'm probably, don't a rabbit hole of every amount of information.

Gabby: There is an article online. They've read it, you know, you don't need to worry about that to know, press send don't do it. Don't do it. Um, man. Yeah. I was gonna say, you know, as well, like it's, it's good to ask questions and really, I mean, He only, you know, the relationship you have with your friend. So if your friend feels safe, like you're a safe, nonjudgmental space, I would assume that your friend probably would welcome questions about specifics. Like, you know, oh, why does she do this? Or, you know, what have you learned about this? Or, you know, that, that kind of you, I can't tell you if you're there with your friend at that point in the relationship with. Um, but you know, or if your French volunteer volunteers information or like, oh, we learned about this this week, feel free to ask follow up questions. I'm not trying to say that you can't, you have to tip toe crier. Yeah. Yeah. You don't have to too around it, but just like understand the relationship you have with your friend. Yeah. Decide for yourself, if you think it's appropriate. Does that make sense? Sure. Does. It's just like, just like anything that's a little bit more tender and intimate, like, you know, questions you'd ask about your friend's marriage or divorce or anything. Like, you know, it really comes down to the relationship you have with them too. And so, I don't know. I'm not trying to say you can, can't ask questions. If you have questions that you think. Care for help you care for them better and understand their child and love their child better. Um,

Mel: but don't give advice and don't try and like yes. You know, compare your ch you know, your friend's kids to other kids cause that's unhelpful and.

Gabby: I'm just not necessary. Yeah. Hm. Yeah. What else? Tell us more. I'm loving hearing about this. I'm glad, I guess number three is don't refer to people with autism as they like, for example, do they tend to XYZ or do they, you know, do people with autism? Like shows or, you know, like lumping it all in and get it all in. Like don't use lumping language, no lumping language. That's good. Um, yeah, because it comes back again. I mean, a lot of this is going to sound redundant, but it does come back to that idea that like every person is different. Like just, just like. You know, neuro-typical people have a range of likes and dislikes and things. They prefer like non-nurse typical people also do. And so there is, it can feel like you're trying to, it can feel like a shortcut, but it's not. And while there are some similarities, like not every autistic person is going to check the entire autistic checklist. For example. And I do, I don't mind sharing this. Like when we did our early autism screening, um, appointment with Downey's doctor, he only checked three things on a list of like 35, you know, it's and that isn't to say, like, you could have checked 10 and your kid still doesn't have autism. You know, th th th this is where I, where this is where it really comes down to, like, it really is so individual, and I don't know, that's why those, that kind of language is just not helpful or useful. Really? No, at all. No,

Mel: it just, yeah. Like, do you know what I would go as far as saying that it's kind of dehumanizing?

Gabby: Yeah. Actually, you know? Yeah. And then I guess, so number four of my five list. And then maybe you can ask whatever questions you want. Cause this is a safe space and Mel is, you're one of my closest friends. And so this is the whole point of this podcast is that you get to be a part of a really deep friendship for an hour or whatever every week. So yeah, you have the safe space. Um, but number four is be flexible. So like my friends who have us over to their home, And just don't have any expectation about how me and Danny are meant to move through their home or interact with their child or move through their predetermined schedule for how our time is supposed to be there. Those people are my safe space. Like they are gold and they are the people that we turn to when we are having a hard day. They're the, they're the places where like I physically can see when Danny walks into their homes, it's light. Like he knows that he's not going to be like forced to do anything he doesn't want to do, or, you know, not loved or it does make a difference. So if, if you're, if you're, um, Friend, you know, has an autistic kid and you invite them over. And this is just my personal experience. Um, there might be people who have different experiences, but my personal experiences. Like I've gone to my friend's house and her, her son also has autism. So it does help. She understands that she gets it, but I'm giving you, um, what's been helpful for me. Like I come over and she's like, okay. So I made the kids chicken nuggets. If Danny doesn't want it, literally don't worry about it. I can make peanut butter toast. I can make a pizza. We can order whatever. Like, because as a parent, you know, Danny might choose to eat chicken nuggets that day, or he might not, or he might go through four things. And until we find something he'll eat. And you do, you just do feel like you're imposing on your friend. Like when you're in someone else's home, like that's, that is a tall order, but just the fact of it's like, oh yeah, he can move that furniture. You can watch the show. Do you want a different show? Do you want a different volume? Do you want to play outside? Do you want, yeah, like it's just that kind of flexibility. Well, I, I realized, even as I say it, it probably feels like a tall order. Those people who accommodate us that way really become like second home. And it, and especially at the age where Danny is at, where he is a bit, quite a bit younger, like having that kind of flexibility for him to just be who he is in with our friends and our community is such a great. I don't know if that makes sense. Oh

Mel: boy. Absolutely. I have, I have a lot of questions about this. Yeah. Go for it. Um, because this is kind of getting into the situational stuff for,

Gabby: for those of us in the kind of other side of,

Mel: of your experience. Um, and I'm thinking about back to you, I'm thinking

Gabby: back to last summer, when you guys came to our house, We had a great time. We had a great time. We did. So we did

Mel: have a good time. And you know, like obviously Tony was when he too, like, he really was so tiny even then was my yeah. Um, or maybe

Gabby: just three. I can remember. Yeah. He was about to turn three, but yeah, he was still too. Yeah. Um,

Mel: and so I remember like, and these are things that I just wish I knew more a bite. I'm trying to have grace for myself. To not like expect myself to have known this, but no,

Gabby: no, I can, but, but here, can I just interject? I didn't know them either. You know what I mean? So I, I definitely feel like now that I have the, the ability to articulate it, I can do that. But at the time, like it was so new for us as well. So I know, sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt, but I just don't want you to feel bad. No, it's not. It's

Mel: not even not, it's not even like that. Coming over and not, you know, whatever a way of accommodating it was. I'm thinking actually about, um, EDA I'm saying in a bite, hi, like she loves other kids. Like she's a, uh, she's, uh, she's she's me and many version. Um, so she loves like a friend coming over to play, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I. Wish that I had better language or ways to kind of prepare her that like, Donnie might not want to play with you, but it's not because he doesn't want to play with you. It's just because he, you know, he, I don't

Gabby: even know what to say, but

Mel: like what, you know, because I. It's not that I want to manage her disappointment in that I want to monitor her her understand.

Gabby: Yep. Absolutely.

Mel: Do you know what I mean? Yeah. So those are one of the things that I'm really interested in hearing from your perspective, like what would be helpful or is that, is that on you to even help with like, or is that my job? Like, do I just have to, like, should I be figuring that out better? Um,

Gabby: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think I want them to understand, of course not

Mel: everybody who comes to play is going to want to play in the same way that

Gabby: you do. Yeah. And I think that is like a conversation that an, I mean, I would not have had the language for that at the time when we came over last year. But I think now I've just learned so much, so, you know, um, I would say. You know, like even just saying like, first of all, like you can totally have a conversation with your friend about it. Like, you know, how does Danny like to play these days? How does he, like before they come over, how does your, how has your child like to interact with kids? Like I want to, you know, make sure he has a good time while he's here. I want to make sure my. Child understands, you know, how he likes to play, especially if your child's non-verbal and can't do that for himself or herself in a play context. Um, that's something that you can totally ask your friends about. Um, but I also think, yeah, there is like the sense of, like, I do think it is really valid of like, A, child's not going to understand why a kid doesn't want to play with them. And that could feel like a negative experience or they don't want to do something there they've been invited to do, or, you know, they don't get any eye contact or they don't, um, speak or they run away from them. Like those are social cues that we, as a neuro-typical people, even from a really young age, that is how we learn to socialize with people. And so even just telling, explaining to your kids that. Not every kid plays the same way, like across the board, you know, some kids like to play in. The like the same room as another kid, but not play the same activity or, you know, some kids have a hard time climbing up, you know, big like high things or some kids don't like when the TV is on and just explaining that there are many different ways to play and engage with your peers, um, and helping your kids understand that. The world is like a very diverse place and like that stuff as a mom, for me, like if I knew all of my friends were having those kinds of conversations with their kids would just feel like the biggest gift because I have no problem. And I love to advocate for my son. Um, but just as a friend, to me, that that's one of the things that. Means so much to me, if I know my friends are already having those conversations with their kids, like not every kid likes to use language to communicate. Not every kid likes to be touched, um, to show affection or, you know, like all of those things and not all of those things apply to Danny per se, but. They, they apply to a lot of us. Of course.

Mel: Yeah. And not just those that are

Gabby: diverse. Yeah, exactly. Um, yeah.

Mel: Oh, that's, that's actually

Gabby: really helpful, you know, and it's,

Mel: uh, one I think, and this is may just maybe being pedantic, but like, um, when I said, like monitoring her disappointment, what I, what I meant by that is more a byte like monitoring her understanding rather than.

Gabby: And I think they can disappointing. Oh, and I, I did not hurt. Do you know what I mean? Like her expectations of

Mel: like Danny's coming over and here's, you know, this is what his mom says he loves to do or often, you know, at the minute, this is what he's into and you know, don't forget that not everybody plays the same. And I mean, I have to go through that with her for so many other relationships. And yeah. And, and I think part of that as well is, is, is that bigger picture of this point that you're, that you're making a bite, like flexibility and making sure that your F your friend feels like your, like your company and your home is a safe place for them to just be themselves, both the parent on the child.

Gabby: I see. I caught myself very early on, you know, when Danny wouldn't do certain things or like, you know, like, You know, he, I remember very vividly, like we were over when he was like one and a half, two, we were over at a friend's house and their son invited him to go down a little, little slide and he just walked away from them. And at the time I was like, oh my gosh, I'm so sorry. Like, blah, blah, blah. And then I realized, I was like, I don't want my child to like, every time we're in a social situation, hear me apologizing for it. Because there isn't actually anything to apologize for. Um, you know, we can do work in our own home of like, Hey Donnie, I know that you think that they understand what you mean when you do this. But sometimes people don't, you know, I'm doing that work with him on my own all the time. So I think that's why it means so much when I know that my friends are having those same conversations with their kids. On the other side of it, because I'm having those conversations with him every day and trying to, you know, it should be

Mel: giving you the benefit of the, of the diet or the like Widespace of Greece to know that, you know, you don't have to apologize for, for your child at all, because, you know, and I'm not, this is not me blanketing, but like, I definitely. I feel like we as parents, we, we do that a lot anyway, instead of kind of, you know, we apologize for our children a lot when a lot of when their behavior is representing or is representative of something else going on for them.

Gabby: Um, yeah. You know, and that's not

Mel: really, it's not really fair is that, you know, um, I can't, I'm not like if Dave apologized for like on my bad.

Gabby: You know, I've had enough coffee today. Actually I'm

Mel: putting two fingers on the screen

Gabby: right now. Yeah. But yeah, like to like, to be

Mel: fully aware and the benefit of the diet is the wrong term, but just like have a think, of course this is, you know, don't. Don't create an environment where it's not really explicit that this, that this parent doesn't need to apologize,

Gabby: like make

Mel: sure, make sure the opposite of that is true, I guess. Yeah, this is I do.

Gabby: Yeah, absolutely. And I, yeah, because it's exactly what you said. Like we don't, we don't go around apologizing for everyone who doesn't behave. That we think that they should. So why would we do that for people who are not neuro-typical, you know, um, it it's, it's coming back to that, like where's, where is the burden of responsibility? And some of it is like, I need to teach Danny to do things. Not run into the road when there's a car. Like there are certain things that, you know, we all need to do, but I, yeah. At the end of the day, I'm safe. I'm safe for sure. Yeah. Yes. So that's, that's I guess a big one for me. Um, and then, okay, so the fifth one, I is all about really like, if you have a friend who's in the early days of going through a diagnosis, Just understanding that that's going to be a really emotionally tender time for them likely chances are, um, you know, and it's, it's, it's very complex. It's very, um, but it's very rooted in love, like a very profound love. And I think that most people, most parents I talked to and my own experience as well is we just want to see. Our kids thrive. And so if you feel like there's a threat that is going to hinder your child, thriving in the world, as it is today, that is always going to feel really scary and really emotional as a parent. And that is just part of like our biological wiring to make sure our children are set up to be the best versions of themselves. And I think a lot of times, because people have so little understanding around these things, Those unknowns feel extra scary, even if they're not, they're not bad things necessarily, you know? Um, and there are, there are, you know, practicalities and things that need to be worked out. But ultimately, you know, that, that season where like as much as I have been advocating and I will continue to advocate for diagnosis. Until I see a reason not to, or like a good reason not to, um, you know, I is just also very emotional. Um, and so it'd be a good friend during that time can even just be like following their lead on like, if they want to talk about it or not. Like, if they don't want to talk, like when Chris and I got the diagnosis, One, we were so relieved, honestly, like we were like, okay, we've got a, we've got language for this thing that we have been experiencing with our son that feels really good and helpful and freeing, but we didn't want to talk about it with our people, like emotionally. We were like, we're happy about it. And we're glad that it exists, but we don't want to sit around and talk. What comes next and what is happening and everyone might be different. Some people might just be like, I need to process this with someone. But I think just being in general and attentive friend and, and following your friend's lead, like, you know, we ended up sending a text out to like our family, like being like, here's what you need to know from the diagnosis. We don't want to talk about it further beyond this text. And that was like a really helpful boundary for us to just be like it, let them know. Okay. We're not going to ask questions and we have the permission to not ask questions because without it coming across as normal, or like we don't care, you know, exactly like Renee brown says about boundaries or like clearest kind, Ferris clearest kind. So I would say it's twofold. One by setting that boundary, it gave our community permission to. Lovingly not ask us because that's what we use that we wanted. And we didn't think they were being bad friends, but it also meant that like, if we did bring it up, then they knew we wanted to talk about it, you know? And it's on your terms. Right? Exactly. So, yes, I know it is, it is complex, but if you are wondering how to be a good friend, these are some of the things that really helped me. And, um, and yeah, again, just, I do want to touch back on like the reason why it feels. Potentially scary or painful or emotional for parents. Isn't because they love their child any less, like at all. It's because you know, your child is being born into a world that's not built for them. And that is emotional and that is scary. And, um, you know, that is why for me as much. As, you know, initially I really wanted to keep this stuff all really close to the chest and now I'm doing it. Oh, like a podcast that's playing across the world about it is because I do think advocacy is so important and knowledge is power and knowledge is, and education is, is key to all of this stuff. And hopefully by me sharing some of this stuff, you know, Other people will be able to thrive a little bit better in their friendships and their relationships with other people. And I don't know if that makes sense. Absolutely

Mel: makes sense. And I think, you know, that that last part particularly speaks to the, not the grief of what the diagnosis is. Right? Like, I don't know what that feels like, the grief of your child. Having to navigate a harder, a harder

Gabby: world. Yeah.

Mel: That, that doesn't, that doesn't necessarily see them. As able to fully operate in all and all spaces freely, um, as well. And that, you know, like that's, that's huge. It really is. It's huge. And it's a huge opportunity for friends to step up to, you know, to advocate in their, and their own way as well, privately, publicly relationally for. X more access for, for neurodiverse people.

Gabby: Yeah. And I think it is just like, I feel like every few years, like more and more becomes more like more information becomes more available. And I think it is helpful like before we didn't really necessarily have. The diagnosis that we do today. And so a lot of kids who were diagnosed, you know, in the eighties are now adults, or just realizing that they are, and they can help us bring language to these things. Like they, if they choose to share about their experience, that's a really helpful resource. And, you know, the way that you can kind of support them is by listening and absorbing and, you know, Validating their experience and, and kind of that, even in your, like, if you're a parent and your parenting style, and also if you're not a parent, um, you know, just like in how you interact with people, like, I, even as a parent with a kid with autism, I've had, like, I saw a meme online here, I'll rewind. I saw a meme online that was like, you know, the best way you can. Be a champion for neurodiversity is to just be kind like if you don't, even when you don't understand what's going on, even when you don't understand, like don't project, your own experience on to things, just assume that there's probably something you don't know and be kind, and really that applies to everyone. This isn't like a, this isn't something that just applies to. People with disabilities. Um,

Mel: but remind him when it comes to this stuff as well, that people who are near a diverse or not commodities, you know, like that's and one of the things I actually wanted to ask you

Gabby: was,

Mel: I'm kind of tied in with this, but if you ever feel that the kind of pressure to. Alongside navigating hi to parent Danny in a world that isn't necessarily set up for his thriving yet. Um, or in, in always if you feel that like not pressure, but responsibility to also be an activist with this stuff. Yeah. Cause like, you know, I imagine, and maybe this is just my personality of where that goes, but at the same time, I'm just like, well, Well, you know, like, does it, I'm trying not to, I'm trying to, I'm trying not to mince my words too much, but you know, I'm thinking about, you know, any kind of injustice when it's, when it comes to our front door. Yeah. There's both you having to navigate that in your own life and be on a steep learning curve about your own child and on how you. You know how you kind of support him. Yeah. But then also do you feel that pressure to like, okay, I must get involved in the fight for equal access for all neurodiverse

Gabby: people. You no,

Mel: but also is it, is it not? Yeah, that feels like a

Gabby: lot. It is a lot. And I think ultimately it comes down to the individual parents decision, like what they want to do, like, you know, I know plenty of people, especially, you know, like you sometimes read memoirs of parents or whatever, where like they had to become an, an autism expert because no one else was, and you know, at the time, or they had, yeah, they just had a different road to walk and a different set of responses that I than I would personally have. And I just think it is with like any kind of thing. You know, you do what you, what feels authentic to you. You know, what doesn't feel authentic to me is to like read every book out there and every article online. About autism. I don't, I don't care to be an autism expert. I really just want to be an expert in my son and also do my bit to make the world a more welcoming place for him and for other kids like him and other people like him. Um, but I know what you're saying. Like, it can feel like you suddenly have this audit responsibility on top of just being a parent. That can feel like a lot. And I mean, I guess I'm

Mel: thinking about that whole, like, you know, last year, whenever w white people had the expectation that anyone who they followed on Instagram that was black should be educating

Gabby: them about risks, right? Yeah. I'm like, I don't know that that's, that's true. Right. I think, um, yeah,

Mel: like that's not, that's not your responsibility.

Gabby: I think it's your responsibility as a, a good human in the world to educate yourself on as many ways as you can, about how there are to exist in the world as a human, even if it's just out of sheer, sheer curiosity. And I think that that can be. When it comes to racism, gender, sexuality, faith issues like that, the spectrum is so broad of like many how many ways there are to be a human in this world. And I do think every time you kind of educate yourself on someone else's perspective or experience you become a better and a kinder person. And so, yeah, I do. I think, I do think it's important to listen to people's stories. Do I think that you need to go and yeah. Read a bunch of books about this. Absolutely not. I think as long as you're just eager to learn curious, you know, if you have a natural curiosity about this follow, that curiosity, like that could take you a lot of incredible places. You know, one of the things that like is so true about our society, that, and it's true of me too, is like a lot of times we don't care about things until they impact us directly. And that's okay. Like I think that's just human nature. I don't think that makes us all inherently evil, but I do think that if you have a natural curiosity about something that doesn't relate to you at all, that's a gift and you should totally just chase that down and see where it takes you, you know? Um, because it does. More pressure off of the people who are experiencing it from constantly having to advocate for themselves. Right. Exactly. Which is exhausting on top of having to move through a world that isn't built for you. That is

Mel: exactly. I mean, that was really beautiful. Yeah. Summed up. And I, I wholeheartedly agree with that. And, um, and I guess the importance of stories and people's individual experiences is part of my tear is not.

Gabby: Yeah. Oh, I wonder,

Mel: I wonder as we kind of start to wrap up, if you're happy to do that. Yeah. I would love, I would love to hear what your hopes are for tonight.

Gabby: Um, I hope that he knows that I am so proud of him and I think he's wonderful, but like, I hope that has I shared these things. I hope he knows it's rooted in like deep respect for who he is as a person and just a desire to see him do whatever he wants to do in life

Mel: and be loved

Gabby: and known, and supported and cared for. And yeah, like celebrate or just celebrated for who he is. So I'm sure you know. Yeah. Yeah. I just, I can't wait to see who he becomes and I'm already, so in love with who he is already, and I wouldn't change anything about him. Um, But I do, I would change things about this world. And so I'll keep, I'll keep working towards that for sure. Um, so thanks for asking that question.

Mel: We're both, we're both amass here.

Gabby: Oh gosh.

Mel: Yeah. I mean, it's a, it's an obvious answer to that question, but. Um, it's absolutely worth Diane. Um, it is, uh, I'm so grateful that you you've. So generously talked about this today and so beautifully and with so much tenderness and wisdom shared your experience and continue to in our friendship. It really means a lot to me to be let into that part of, of your, of your relationship with Donna and. On your family life. Yeah. Well, and I'm proud of

Gabby: you guys. Thanks. Thanks for being a safe space for us. And yeah, you're a great friend. And I do want to say before we go, you know, if you're someone who is. First of all, I'm sure I could. I didn't, I'm sure this wasn't perfect. The perfect episode for everyone. This is just my experience. And I'm happy to talk about, you know, stuff with you guys offline here, but, um, also if you're someone who is walking through diagnosis, or if you were wondering if you need to get your child diagnosed or. You just, you don't have anyone who is, has walked a similar path. Um, I am more than happy to be a resource to you online and through my emails and DMS. Um, you can find me on Instagram @gabllewellyn or Gabriela.llewelyn@gmail.com is my email address. And, um, I know that my friends who. Have kids with autism where like my lifeline during those that first year. And so if you don't have anyone like that, I would be more than happy to walk alongside you in that and be a support to you and your family.

Mel: Hm. Beautiful, generous thing to all.

Gabby: Thank you. My love. Yeah. I'm glad we did this episode. Yeah. I love you. I love you too. All right, until next time guys.

Mel: Bye. Thanks everybody for listening. And as always, you can, you can send this to your messages on Instagram and, uh, Um, any of the thoughts and feelings you have to email at hello@makinganeffortpodcast.com and thank you, Gabby.

Gabby: Thank you for making it a safe space. All right, we'll see you guys next time. Bye. Bye.