Episode 26: Our Reactions to the Mars Hill Podcast

>>> Click here to read the computer generated transcript (note that the transcript isn't perfect)

Gabby: Welcome to the making and effort podcast, the podcast where you get to drop in on a conversation between two friends, talking about all the things we make an effort with and some of the things we don't. And, um, I just did a little shimmy. Because I was trying to shake down and my phlegm, no, we can't stop laughing about it. You know, you know what, it's the friends

Mel: Just the phrase shake down my phlegm is really funny and really, really, and very disgusting

Gabby: it's very gross and I'm sorry if that was just like, you know,

Mel: She had her arms up at like, like, like she was holding dumbbells and like just a little side stage.

Gabby: Sort of thing you have to do when you start podcasting five minutes after you wake up?

Mel: So true. Sorry about that, everyone. Um, but welcome. How are you doing? How are you doing? And Gabby,

Gabby: I'm actually doing great. Um, I wa I went to, uh, a good friend's wedding this past weekend, and that was just so good. It felt like normal life a little bit. Um, you know, like things we did prepare and pandemic, and I think, yeah, I want to say it's the first wedding I've been to since the. And so that was really special. And I just forgot how fun it is to like do stuff with a group of people. Like that felt really fun. So,

Mel: yeah. Yeah. I imagine it wasn't the first wedding that you'd been to and there was like a really important one that you already had gone to, and that person's listening and they're like, what a bitch. She was totally at my wedding.

Gabby: I know. You're welcome. Um, to, um, come yell at me for that. If you need to, in my defense, it is. Uh, it is 6:16 AM in the morning and six 16. I've got a few brain cells just, you know, revving

Mel: up. Mm. Yeah. I feel like that my myself this morning, well, it's not this morning, this 12, 16 with me, but, um, yeah, I. We've been, we've been at the coast as well, you know, just doing our Coastie thing. So not loads to not loads to report on that front. Um, although Dave, just before I went and came upstairs to, to record with you, uh, let me know that there's a new episode of the Mars. The rise and fall of Mars hill podcasts that I know both of us have been listening to over the last week or so have you, are you coming? Yeah, so I have, except for this

Gabby: episode, I got to the end of episode five, um, and. Yeah. So today's episode, I think we're going to talk about our initial reactions to the podcast. And then we are going to talk about if we're going to switch gears and go to something a bit lighter, probably. And talk about if we could swap lives with anyone for a day, who would it be? Um, So just so you guys know what's coming, but yeah, the Mars hill podcast. Wow.

Mel: I had for people who maybe don't know what that is though, maybe be important to just say a quick overview of it. So Mars hill is there's two Mars Hill churches, one that was in Seattle and one that was in, uh, Michigan. Um, and. This is about the Seattle one, I'm particularly about the former leader of that church, um, called mark Driscoll, who you may or may not have heard of, um, who and I think 2014 resigned from his position because there was a lot of controversy surrounding his leadership. Um, and it was like, Yeah. It was a pretty toxic unraveling of how he led that church, the, the practices and things that went on there that were pretty toxic. And this podcast is kind of getting into a bit of that. It hasn't really had, I don't know if it has there hasn't been like a full documentary or anything about what happened. Back then it's, it's a pretty important, it's a pretty important lesson to anyone who grew up in evangelical culture or continues to be involved in that. And just some of the, yeah, the big, the big bank things that have been problematic. Yeah.

Gabby: I think it's fair. Yeah. I think it's, you know, I would also say. Probably a very, a fairly triggering podcast series to listen to. Um, just because it does kind of, you know, put some really hard topics under a microscope and evaluate some, I think it very fairly and very thoughtfully and think it's incredibly well done. And, uh, I mean the journalism and the research that has gone into this podcast is so well done. Um, It's a, it's a, it's a fantastic list. And even if you didn't really grow up in that culture, I think it would definitely give you a real window into, you know, some were kind of like, especially if you grew up in like reformed churches. Um, I don't know if the word reformed means anything to anyone here. Um, but it's just, uh, a very. Like kind of back to the Bible air quotes, uh, version of Christianity. So yeah, we thought we would talk about our reactions to it today because our reactions have been strong. And, um, I think because at least for me, I very much grew up in reforms churches and was very into Morris hill

Mel: and.

Gabby: Um, mark Driscoll. I think I had about three people, three or four people message me about it. The day it came out and was like, how do you listen to this? You must listen to it. And then finally I got like what I was actually flying out for the wedding. I finally got like a chunk of time and I binged all five episodes. Um, but yeah, yeah. It was, I would say my initial headline reaction is, oh my goodness. I'm so glad someone's talking about this. Um, so thoughtfully, um, you know, I think one thing that I really haven't enjoyed on the internet is it's great that we all have our reactions to things about stuff that, and a lot of times, you know, very fair react. When we have negative experiences in organized religion, but sometimes I think it can just turn into like one huge angry mob. And I feel like this podcast is very thoughtfully done. It has like a ton of insight. It's not so much about bashing anyone or anything as much as it is about uncovering and telling a story and letting you kind of come to your own conclusions, which is good journalism in my opinion. So yeah,

Mel: yeah, really, really good, really thoughtful. I thought that, you know, because like you said, it's more like an exposure of the truth, right? Like the facts of what happened and what went down in that church and, and also the ripples of it through the rest of evangelicalism and, um, kind of modern Christian culture. Um, and there was parts of it that I thought that were really, that really cemented that feeling of it not being abashing was that they, that they, that they did share some of the important. Important things that happened that weren't

Gabby: so toxic. Yeah, exactly.

Mel: So like opportunities where people in that church were really supported well, or they were, you know, were lots of people felt like they had community and stuff like that. Um, because I don't know about you, but I I'm just, I would just be automatically really wary of anything that was old. All

Gabby: bashing, right? Yeah.

Mel: Totally sure. Immediately have diets. Yeah. A full picture. So, um, to hear some of that stuff, actually, I don't know if it like made the rest of it feel, I guess more stark, because I did really trust, I do really trust what is being said, because they are willing to give some of the alternative narrative to it as well.

Gabby: Well, and I'll even say my own experience with Mars hill. So, you know, I grew up in a very reformed kind of fundamentalist. I guess to a certain degree church myself. And so I was very much primed to not be culturally shocked by the Morris hill ethos and some of the things that they were teaching there. Cause it was it wasn't too dissimilar to what I grew up with. Um, But like the somewhat like quote someone in the podcast where they talk about like how it felt very, you know, edgy and cool and kind of punk rock. And like anti-establishment when he first joined it. And I think that was my own appeal to, with the Morris hill thing was like, you know, I'd kind of grown up in these stuffy churches that had like very strict rules and it felt really like all sentic and. Cool to like, hear this past, you're talking about like grabbing some beers and like listening to like normal music and like all of those things that you kind of maybe don't think of. At least I didn't think of when I was growing up in church as like things that pastors did. And so it felt very antiestablishment and that. Like I, something that I was very drawn to. I remember I did an internship out in Seattle during college. And, um, I think this was like maybe three years before everything, you know, with Maurice hill kind of came tumbling down like 2011, maybe. Um, and. I've I w I w was like, yeah, I'm going to give this church a try while I'm out here. And I went to the downtown campus and I had just gotten, I looked up the times wrong for the services and walked in and realized, oh, they're like, almost towards the end of the service. I'll just come back. Like, you know, the next, the next service. So I like walked out and. This man ran after me and was like, Hey, like, you know, I just want to make sure you're okay. Like I saw you come in and then leave again. And I just want to make sure that, you know, Like, if we can make you feel welcome, we want to, it was, it wasn't creepy. It was very genuine and very kind. And, um, you know, I just said, oh my goodness, it's completely fine. Like, I just got the time wrong. I'm going to come back and like 45 minutes. And it was the head pastor of that church. And I thought that was very like, that actually really touched me that the head pastor was. Aware of kind of what was happening on the ground, the day-to-day and like trying to make sure people felt welcomed. And then my experience in the church. Cause I, I mean, I went there for like two months. I wasn't super involved, but every single Sunday that I was there, I felt very. Like the people either have one of those moments where, you know, you meet someone around you or whatever in the service. And every single Sunday, someone very authentically would like, be like, Hey, like, you know, a bunch of us are going to be at this restaurant later. Like, we'd love to see you there kind of a thing. And I remember just being so impressed with the culture of inclusion and it wasn't weird, but it was warm and it was. Like I felt very seen. And I think for me as someone who was just kind of, you know, coming into the church for a really brief moment, like that felt very moving. Um, but obviously I wasn't there at long enough or involved enough to see some of them. Problematic parts of it. But I think that, I think as all of this, to say, as you're listening to the podcast and you are hearing these people say, well, these were all the things that I loved about this church that made me stay involved in it for so long. I was like, yeah, I can see that because I experienced it for like the two months I was there and it, and it did feel good and it did feel awesome. Yeah. I don't know. That's kind of my thoughts on that.

Mel: Hmm. Yeah. And that's, that's so interesting though, because that, to me, that's, it's so tricky, isn't it? Because you really, you do know that now you're looking back in retrospect, knowing what you know about that period of time, that, that would've been really pink

Gabby: dress gold.

Mel: Yeah. Elevation control leadership, lots of issues, Ty. Yep. And it's, it's really interesting that on the, in the, on the kind of surface of things that, that can co-exist, you know, uh, kind of more inclusive community, Can co-exist with such dangerous, abusive leadership. Well, it's kind of the thing really fascinating.

Gabby: So like, but here's the thing. So I'm listening to this podcast off the back of having just watched the HBO documentary on the Nexium cult. It's the documentary called the vow. Um, I mean, there are a ton of documentaries on this specific cult, but this one kind of explorers more how to really good, intelligent kind people who mean really well get involved in things that are like you could, you know, objectively evil and. I find it very, I find it like, there's a lot of parallels because they talk about this. Like it's not just saving the psychology, but, you know yeah. I guess the psychology of how thoughtful. Well, meaning people get involved in things that they maybe wouldn't on paper agree with. And I think we've all been there. Like, I mean, maybe not, we haven't all been there. I've definitely been there where I've been, I've looked at, I've looked back on things I've been involved in and been like, oh my goodness, I'm so glad I've grown out of that mindset and that I wouldn't participate in something like that anymore. But at the time, my intentions were very pure and my intentions were, I wanted to, you know, grow spiritually and I wanted to know myself better and I wanted to care for others better and make the world a better place. And, you know, I think, I don't know. I think that's a very relatable experience for a lot of people. Sometimes you don't see. And I think a lot of it is like, you don't see some of the growth stuff that's happening. And that was the same in the vow, uh, documentary, like the people who were doing the documentary were like, there was a lot of stuff we didn't know about until the end. And then when we did hear about it, we were out of there. And I think very similar to Marcel, obviously. We're going to learn more about that as the series continues, but there are core people in this, in the middle who kind of knew some of the stuff that was going on. And then there were all the other people who were like, well, wow, I feel very jarred by this, but it's kind of that group think mentality where you're like, everyone else is saying, this is good. And so far, my experience has been good. So I'm just going to keep believing. This is good instead of. Maybe listening to some of those emotional checks that you have along the way that are giving you valuable information about, you know, how you should feel about things.

Mel: But yet also while there, maybe you're having some doubts about stuff they're also experiencing community. Yeah. Which is really, really hard to, you know, having that. Experience makes it really hard to then question things at the top does not, because not only does it, is it confusing because your experience of this is different to what you maybe think is happening and. Isn't happening well, but you also then run the risk of isolating yourself within that community. Um, and it's interesting what you said about like, like you didn't know better, so you just of. Like, it's not something that you would ascribe to now or whatever, but then like, obviously I went on a bit of a mark Driscoll, Google search after, after the first few episodes and to see what he was up to now. And he's like, you know, he's leading another church and yeah. And that was on their website and I was listening. Like clips of his sermons on Instagram and, and I'm like, oh, this is the same

Gabby: thing. Yeah. You're just starting over and hoping that other people are fine with it.

Mel: Yeah. It's just really fascinating to like, and obviously we don't know the person and his is an intimate changes in his own personal life, but, you know, talks like. But is it talks like a duck walks like a duck. It's probably a duck. Like,

Gabby: yeah. Well, I also, I don't

Mel: think that's the saying no, you know, to that effect. And

Gabby: here's the thing not to like launch into another broader conversation, like cancel culture is toxic. However, big caveat it, when trust is broken, you're allowed to act on that broken trust and set up boundaries that, you know, Acknowledged that trust has been broken and that doesn't make you, you know, a negative person. It just makes you someone who's probably emotionally healthy and making good decisions. So like there, there is a difference between like, oh, we're canceling someone and you know, there, there is, I think there is something that's good about like believing the best in people and hoping for the best for them, but also safeguarding your own wellbeing. And saying, well, so far you haven't proven to be a trustworthy place. Um, so you know, we're going to have to work on rebuilding that trust and, and hopefully, I mean, I have not, I have not looked at what he's doing right now in my, I mean, in my opinion. Yeah. Uh, I guess I'll just, this is my podcast. I can say my opinion and people are allowed to disagree with me and my opinion. And when you've had that big of an abuse of power, maybe you shouldn't be empowered anymore. And it doesn't mean that you're not allowed to community or to be a part of a community and to be loved and to be in a space where you can grow, but maybe you have broken trust to a degree where you shouldn't be in leadership anymore. Um, and that's my, that is my personal opinion. Uh, but yeah, it is tricky. It's so fascinating. I think that you should definitely listen to the series if you're at all interested in anything we've been talking about. Um, I also, sorry, not to just keep going, but I also am very interested in the broader conversation that is larger than mark Driscoll about the Western evangelical church experience and megachurches in general. And I think. And what happens when we decide, like we give one person so much power. Um, I am very fascinated, fascinated to see where this podcast goes with that. And I really hope that it has some big, uh, big impact on yeah. That whole culture, because I think it would be good.

Mel: I agree. Yeah. I think it's very, it's, you know, it does feel like so. Like nobody, nobody's, nobody's really going to get away with things as much anymore. Like, I, I definitely feel like we have seen the crumbling of all of the ivory, tars of patriarchal. Um, toxic patriarchal capitalist, racist Christianity. Like we are, we are seeing them crumble. I'm here for I'm here for that completely. Um, I think a lot of it needs to be burned dine, um, because it is, it is pretty rotten. Um, um, And we, yeah. I mean, it's just, it is absolutely fascinating as someone like, I know that you're more or less like inside those, those worlds more than I am with your proximity to the bond and, and your husband's job and what they, where they go and what they do. Um, but as someone who. Outside of the church, you know, like it's just very interesting. It was. Yeah. So I mean, that is a massive trigger warning for anybody that's listening that it does stir stuff up. And there is, I mean, probably the, some of the biggest shock jock stuff, um, that Driscoll says is really triggering around women and misogyny and, uh, Yeah, that kind of thing. So just, you know, proceed with caution, but it is very, very worthless than to it is. Um, yeah. That was, I mean, we could do a side by side play by play free episode, our reactions to, but that's not what this book has, is

Gabby: taking a hard turn in another direction

Mel: indicators on.

Gabby: Yeah. Uh, yes. Who would we want to swap days or soft lives with? Do you have someone off the top of your head?

Mel: Okay. So I don't have an actual person. Okay. Yeah. So it's not an actual person that I, that was famous for that I know or whatever, but I would love to swap lives with someone who had a very RD, like. Life in Brooklyn or something, right? Like some sort of like, you know, beautiful exposed brick apartment, but they, you know, that they sashay out of mess J pay style, you know, they go to their like gallery job or they pay rent or they talk to other bait neck. Friends, Nick, you know, I

Gabby: don't know. Sorry, like, uh, I don't know who would say beat Nick was just like a catcher in the rise

Mel: situation or like, I don't know. It's funny, you know, like

Gabby: poets suddenly. Yeah. You're all like sitting at a jazz lounge, smoking cigarettes and like being like, Ooh, antiestablishment. We're just making arts and drinking martinis. Yeah.

Mel: But they're like wearing clothes from like J crew. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

Gabby: exactly. Very beatnik as we all know

Mel: from like 10 years. Um, but just that kind of like free Bo Hey man, you know, Everyone wonders how they make their money kind of, yes.

Gabby: Like I can tell you how they make their money. They are all trust fund kids who truly literally have never done a day of this work in their lives. But I mean, Hey, I would, I would be fine. Switching lives with a trust fund kid for like a minute. So yeah. You know, I'd like to

Mel: test the water. Yeah. Yeah. What about you?

Gabby: Um, I guess. So

Mel: Megan Markle.

Gabby: No, thank you.

Mel: Oh, good. You can just fly way under the radar. Cause you look like

Gabby: her. Gosh, she, yes. Let's seems like she hasn't had the best of times. So although I would love to just spend a day in the life of a royal. And just see what it's like, you know what I mean? We're going to say this. Well, I didn't, I, this wasn't what I had prepared, but now that you're bringing it up, I'm like, oh yeah, that would be for like switch. Like, I would love to know what a day in the life of princess Diana was like, you know, and like wear her clothes and like, just, I mean, I know, I know we're glamorizing something that was really terrible. So I'm aware of that, but also I just wonder what it was like out of curiosity, to have like the eyes of the world on you in such a big way. Um, I guess mine too is like very much, you know, what I think of is, so my dream job, which maybe someday I'll get there, I'm never say never is to be a murder mystery, writer and to just like live in the countryside and just turn out a book every year and a half or so, and have like a book deal and, you know, maybe do like a few like dinners or book release parties and like fly to London for the day or whatever. Like that is my dream life. So. Maybe it will happen someday.

Mel: Um, but

Gabby: as of, as of right now, I could think of a few authors that I love, who I know do this, and it would be fun to see what their rhythm of life is like.

Mel: Um, who, like, who, who do you hear? Are you curious

Gabby: about and cleaves for sure. I mean, she's been doing this for like what 25 years. Um, Mel: isn't that the coolest thing of like, like, I often think like that's the ideal, like fam as not as an author, like you're not

Gabby: going to get shot, you know, Mel: she's walking a boat in Tesco and nobody knows who she is. Yeah. You know, she's just

Gabby: about us. And it's like, how does that, like little, you know, 50 or eight year old woman just, who never leaves her house? How does she afford that mansion? And it's like, well, I don't know that. And place hasn't mentioned, I could Google it.

Mel: I reckon enclaves was a trust fund, baby. She's writing books on daddy's money.

Gabby: I mean, good for her. She, she multiplied daddy's money, which is your most trust button

Mel: kids can say. That's funny. Um,

Gabby: yeah, I don't know. I think that is kind of like the dream. I also am rewatching, um, sex in the city right now, and I know that it's not real life and every new Yorker will tell you that there's no way a columnist like. Carrie Bradshaw would be able to afford the apartment that she has and all the shoes and all the everything. But it's a nice dream. Yeah. Yeah. We'll take it. Yeah. Oh, she was the precursor to bloggers and you know,

Mel: she was hello. So have you been, have you seen any of the like, um, pictures and stuff from set from them? It's so strange because you just, I mean, I don't know about you, but like, I was such a big sex in the study, fun. And even with the movies and stuff like that was ages ago, but I just have them locked in my mind as the one, like, as like 40, 43, you know, like that's the age that they forever be to me. And then to see like, Like Sarah, Jessica Parker, you can really see her age in her and how she looks. Um, and, and Chris and they've all had, well, I don't know that SJP has, but like Cynthia, next to that. And, um, what's, what's her name? I actually don't know Charlotte's actress named Charlotte. Oh, I know this, but, um, but they definitely have had some, some interesting work done on their faces. I haven't noticed that. I mean, I did notice that and I was like, wow, this, this doesn't look like it doesn't look like that most. No, it doesn't really Kristin Davis. What's her name? Um, so. Yeah, that's been really, I'm really interested to see what they're going to do. I just, I mean, everyone will go and see it anyway, but we will, we will Ms. Kim Cottrell. My,

Gabby: yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah, but is, I mean, they live very glamorous lives.

Mel: Yeah. You know, and then you have, then you have like the kind of more, a little bit more reality of that when girls can, might, do you remember watch and girls, you never watched girls. You never

Gabby: watched girls. No, I, I like, I watch a few episodes and I just was like, nah, it's not, for me. It was a little too, I'm too much of a romantic, like. The closer you edge to reality in art. It's like if it's reality TV, which isn't even really very much reality, reality TV, good like romanticized versions of fictional life. Good art that emulates life not good. That's my category. If it's too close to I'm just like, well, why, why would I bother watching this? I can just go live it.

Mel: I don't know, I could just go live it. It's fine. I love

Gabby: that. I need like an ideal. I need a bit of like, you know, I don't know, fantasy veneer.

Mel: Yeah, fair enough. I did. I did really like girls, but you know, they kind of pitched to us. Girls was like the, the kind of new sex in the city, but with. Oh, like as much of the glam with a bit more grit, the relationships and all that kind of stuff. I really liked it. I thought it was really fun. Um, anyway. Yeah. So both of us, if we go miss it, You'll be, you'll find us in

Gabby: New York. Apparently we just want to go to New York. That's all we've been saying. We're

Mel: right. We're writing, we're writing books and hanging out with fate necks and J crew outfits

Mel: and jazz bars. Uh, yeah. All right. All right. Good job. Well, yeah, that was from the movie. Serious to the ridiculous. Um, thanks for coming on this journey with us today. Um, and we're going to put out a final call for our purity culture episode. Um, yeah, she, we have already received some yeah. Beautiful. And, um, moving emails and voice memo memos from me guys. And we are where we're in three of those, um, in preparation for, for talking about purity culture. Um, if you have anything to add your own story, whatever, like we would just absolutely love to hear from you and you can, you can send us a voice memo. Um, Uh, hello@makinganeffortpodcast.com. Yep. Absolutely. We can't wait to hear it right until next time, everybody. Thanks so much. All right. Bye-bye aye.